Talk:James Fenimore Cooper/Archive 1

Archive 1

Comments

"As a satirist and observer he is simply the “Cooper who's written six volumes to prove he's as good as a Lord” of Lowell's clever portrait; his enormous vanity and his irritability find vent in a sort of dull violence which is exceedingly tiresome."

The author here suddenly jumps from reporting what others thing to making their own judgements its hard to follow.

Added reference to Mark Twain's criticism. --Veniceslug1 03:50, 10 May 2005 (UTC)

I came here to post exactly this. It confused the hell out of me when I read it, because the quotation marks stop in the middle of the setence, but I don't think they're supposed to do so. Plushpuffin (talk) 02:33, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Blame it, as well as nearly every other problem with this page, on the note at the top of this talk page: This article incorporates text from the Encyclopædia Britannica Eleventh Edition, now in the public domain. --Midnightdreary (talk) 02:41, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Secret Service

Anyone know about any links to a group called the Society of Cincinnatus? It might be spelled differently. I heard this is a kind of secret service that he was involved in.--Lalonguecarabine 16:31, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

It's the Society of Cincinnati, and he likely was a member, as several of his contemporaries in Scarsdale were, but I can't find any documentation to that effect. Wikipedia has a full article. --Locho269 22:37, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Precaution - please undo the redirect

Please undo the redirect for Precaution - I don't know how to do this myself. Surely the book deserves its own page...Zigzig20s (talk) 10:58, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

I have added a link to the book, is that what you meant? Drutt (talk) 18:32, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

plot description

Is this plot description: Antarctica, aristocratic monkeys. 1830s for real? That seems like it might warrant further explanation, if so. john k (talk) 18:16, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes. See: http://external.oneonta.edu/cooper/articles/suny/1991suny-michaelsen.html#noteAppendix

NPOV?

There seems to be a lot of personal judgement about his works here, as in "Quitting America for Europe he published at Paris The Prairie (1826), the best of his books in nearly all respects, and The Red Rover, (1828), by no means his worst."

Also, "These excellent novels were, however, succeeded by one very inferior, The Wept of Wish-ton-Wish (1829); ... "

I think the wording needs to be altered somewhat to be a little more NPOV.Airosche 21:36, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

I haven't read any of Cooper's works, but I have to agree with the above opinions that find this article lacking in NPOV, especially under "Last Years and Legacy." Trashing him so viciously on aesthetic grounds smuggles in some unnamed standard of what makes for aesthetic quality, and that sort of thing went out of literary criticism more than 50 years ago. I mean, a Cooper lover can just come along and edit in that he's great, that his narratives are weaved together with a supreme deft, or some other high-falutin' praise, and that's no more insightful or persuasive than the present article's "He sucks."JimmyTheSaint 04:42, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

The last section is way too POV. Accurate, perhaps, but still POV. However, it sounds almost like the whole thing is quoted verbatim from someone else, and not attributed.DegreeAbsolute 01:23, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Gah, will someone please fix the obvious POV in this article or put up one of those swell tags. This makes me cry :(

Tag added! Now someone just needs to go in and edit away! Midnightdreary 17:40, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

These read as the opinions of the Britannica; one of the oddities of using that source. The judgments involved may well be consensus; if not, they should be updated, rather than removed. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:50, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Really, they should be properly sourced with footnotes. This whole article needs a lot of work. It's on my to-do list... one of these days. --Midnightdreary (talk) 02:35, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Tolkien?

Cooper's work has greatly influenced J.R.R. Tolkien, whose Elves have many elements of Cooper's portraits of noble Native Americans, while some passages -- like the journey down the river Anduin in The Two Towers -- read like passages from The Last of the Mohicans

Is this original research? I find no source for it. Personally, I see few similarities other than living in forests and using bows. (While looking for it, I do see claims that Cooper, especially the sea stories, influenced Eugene Sue.) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:12, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Definitely needs sourcing... I'm as suspicious as you are that it's original research. If not, this is a prime candidate for removal. --Midnightdreary (talk) 02:37, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Sounds pretty ridiculous, anyway. Having read both LotM and LotR, I would say the writing styles have very little in common! --Alinnisawest(talk) 02:39, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

expelled from Yale ?

I am told that he was expelled from Yale and that there is a copy of his books at Elihu at Yale. This seems something to be included in his bio. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4rousseau (talk • contribs) 05:11, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Respect from Russia to Cooper! Surovye muzhiki love to read his exellect stories —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.143.50.157 (talk) 07:04, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

External links

Please consider adding this external link to the entry on Cooper

• The Diary Junction Blog Pikle (talk) 10:23, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure that blogs don't qualify by our external links policy. They are specifically mentioned in the "links to be avoided" section at WP:ELNO. --Midnightdreary (talk) 11:40, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Surely there are blogs and blogs. I only call the Diary Junction articles a 'blog' because they are hosted by blogger; but the articles, if you care to look, are carefully written, not the slightest bit personal or commercial, carefully referenced with an emphasis on original material available on the web and links to where that material is available, and likely to be of interest to people interested in the subject. There are many Wikipedia links to less well-written, less useful, and highly commercial websites. But, that's why I've posted on the talk page. If you don't want the link there, then don't add it. Thanks for your time. Pikle (talk) 11:32, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Hey, I'm just one person (so are you; why didn't you just add it yourself anyway?) Just because there are other poor links doesn't mean we should add more poor links; we should be removing the other poor links. Unless the article is peer-reviewed it usually doesn't pass the test for a reliable source. So why not have the same criteria for external links? I assume you've read the policy on external links? --Midnightdreary (talk) 12:08, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Yes, of course I agree that the existence of other poor links is not a valid argument, so I’ll not come back on that. Why didn’t I add it myself? Because when I tried to add a few links myself I was soon shot down, and told I wasn’t allowed to link to my own website. Fair enough. I did know that, but I didn’t realise the RULES were so inflexible and I thought I had good reason and argument - both websites (The Diary Junction and the Diary Junction Blog) were designed to be a resource for internet users, absolutely focused on helping them find original texts and material, well-written, absolutely relevant etc etc. But no one was prepared to consider any bending of rules. So I stopped trying to argue my point. See my talk page if you're at all interested. Nearly a year later, I thought I’d try and abide by the advice I was given, and the RULES, which is why I’m now using talk pages so each article can be assessed on its own merits, and each article’s watchers can decide for themselves. But, truly I’d prefer to spend time writing my articles than arguing with the Wikipedia community. PS: here's a couple of possible external diary links for pages you've written * Article on Whitman * Diary Junction data page on Irving —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pikle (talk • contribs) 14:32, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

<ahem> First, I should say that I have not "written" a single article on Wikipedia. I have contributed to and collaborated on many. Yes, the conflict of interest is a concern; it may even come across as spamming. We do bend rules here and there, but I don't think you'll get much support from me on this one. Looking over your site, I do find it interesting, but not a good source for info (one page mentions James Fenimore Cooper is no longer a household name, which is a more than dubious assertion; another uses, of all things, Wikipedia as a source). I'm glad you took the advice of others and brought this to a discussion page; had I known the COI circumstance, I would have made the same suggestion. Anyway, to bring this to a point: I don't think this qualifies as a good external link. Others may agree or disagree at will. --Midnightdreary (talk) 17:26, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Ok, thank you. Pikle (talk) 19:43, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Legacy and Criticism IN JFCooper article--Please HELP

I edited the "Balzac" blue-colored link referring to the French writer under Legacy and Criticism. Not Everyone knows who this man is so that is One reason that I thought it was necessary. I edited it so it would refer to the proper source-the French writer Honore de Balzac Because when I clicked on the name-link Instead of it going to Balzac, the writer it went to Balzac, a Japanese rock band!! On that rock page it does mention the writer (at the top), But Not everyone knows Balzac's full name since they are students. James Fenimore Cooper's article deserves something Better than some weird re-Direct of a link, Through some rock-band article, to the Proper party i.e. the French writer. Again, many people learn about writers and others, through Wikipedia. Can someone touch-up my "Honore de Balzac" edit so it appears in blue and Links Appropriately to the French writer-Should someone wish to click on that link-Please? And, of course, if the French accent mark can be added to the "Honore" part so much the better. Thanks very much to everyone who contributed to the page of this great American novelist. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fenimoree (talk • contribs) 19:42, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

I wrote the previous thing regarding Balzac. Before I edited it -it just said "Balzac admired him greatly". No indication of Who Balzac was.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.170.111.187 (talk) 19:59, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Okay, okay. It's fixed... no need to be so long-winded! Do you have a source for this, by the way? --Midnightdreary (talk) 20:08, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

I noticed the "citation needed" tag on the comment that Franz Schubert was a fan of Cooper's novels. This fact is clearly reflected in the Final illness and death section in the Schubert article, including a reference to the source. I'd add it to the Cooper article, but the procedure of deciphering it from the Schubert article and transforming it for the Cooper article seems too technical for me. Can someone else jump on this? -JohnAlbertRigali (talk) 09:02, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

The reference to Schubert is actually from a letter that Schubert wrote to a friend a week before his death. He admitted to having read several of Cooper's novels and wanting more. But it doesn't actually say that Schubert had just read them. So saying he became an avid reader on his death bed may not be accurate. I reworded this and added a footnote to the letter. Tripsitinka (talk) 06:38, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

This is a good start, but citing the letter directly is not proper for Wikipedia. The policy on reliable sources clearly asks for "third-party" and "published" sources. Has anyone ever published a book that mentions Schubert's interest in Cooper? --Midnightdreary (talk) 12:45, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

List of writings

Why was the article List of works by James Fenimore Cooper emptied and dumped here? The article needs a lot of work, but that seperate bibliography page was in much better shape than this one. Was this major change discussed but I missed it? --Midnightdreary (talk) 20:25, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Dans ses écrits, un sage Italien / Dit que le mieux est l'ennemi du bien.[The perfect is the enemy of the good.] Most people coming to a author's site expect at least a partial list of works. I suggest using http://external.oneonta.edu/cooper/bibliography/works.html.

rather thin stuff

This is the kind of Wikipedia article that gives weight to the view that Wikipedia provides nothing of any value. For example... What, exactly, were Cooper's political beliefs, and why did they cause such controversy? (The article goes little beyond "Cooper got into arguments with Europeans".) It also needs a discussion of the perceived-homoerotic elements in the Leatherstocking stories.

The only good thing one can say about such a shallow article is that it immediately drives one to other sources. WilliamSommerwerck (talk) 16:22, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

The article is crap, as has been acknowledged on this talk page already. It looks like virtually no work has been done since it's original text was (likely) cut and paste from a public domain or 19th-century encyclopedia source. Clearly, there are no significant footnotes, which is a good sign that no one has put serious effort into the article, and it's doubtful that anyone is suggesting in the least that this is a good example of a Wikipedia article. To criticize an article that has had so little attention so harshly seems a bit unfair. However, I might respond: "So fix it." --Midnightdreary (talk) 22:47, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

I don't know how to add things, but what about someone adding a "Cooper in Pop Culture" section? The most obvious thing to be included would be Hawkeye from the tv show M*A*S*H. Also, the recent book "Monsters of Templeton" takes a lot of things from Cooper's "The Pioneers". Both are referenced on here to the Cooper link. Just a suggestion for where to start. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 167.164.3.140 (talk) 13:24, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Those pop culture sections are highly controversial 'round here; it would likely be removed fairly quickly. I'd say it's more important to focus on Cooper's life and work. --Midnightdreary (talk) 14:46, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Rijksmuseum Amsterdam Daguerreotype of JFC

I found this daguerreotype at Rijksmuseum Amsterdam's website here. Is this really James Fenimore Cooper? The museum says so, and attributes the daguerreotype to Mathew Brady. However, the person pictured seems to have different facial features from the other images of JFC, specifically those at NYPL Digital Gallery or here. Any thoughts?? Scewing (talk) 18:24, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

It's an interesting find and I, for one, am definitely confused. My understanding of Cooper is very superficial but I seem to recall a lack of photographs of Cooper being a frustration among biographers. I have no source to verify that, however. --Midnightdreary (talk) 03:01, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Ship's template

Sadads, previously ships names were using this template {{USS|Oneida|1809}} which displayed the date in the text. In one case a passage using this template read like this: Cooper's first naval assignment was aboard the USS Vesuvius (1806) which very likely would have lead the reader to think this had occurred in 1806. This is why I made the revision, using standard links/brackets. Currently I see the templates are being used again, but with a parameter added, resulting with the ship's name but with no year attached, which is great. I have no issues with the templates so long as the ship's 'birth date' isn't automatically spelled out. Also, thanks for helping out in general. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 22:21, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Cool beans, I will keep copyediting, and polishing, etc. I am not on very often, so if I am not always quick to fix stuff that is why :P I am slowly easing myself back in after a long wiki-break, Sadads (talk) 03:15, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

internal discrepancy re: Yale

Lead says he dropped out of Yale after becoming discontented with college life. Early life and family says he was expelled from Yale for blowing up another student's door. Both give the same "Lounsbury" reference (on Google), which doesn't mention an exploded door but does say he was "dismissed" from Yale for "a frolic" that had serious consequences. Based on that reference, I'm going to change the "dropped out" nonsense in the lead to say he was expelled.--Jim10701 (talk) 20:39, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

Sailing directions

When travelling to England by sea from the United States to arrive at Cowes, which is on the Isle of Wight, one does not pass through the Straits of Dover, as alleged in this article. To get to Cowes, his ship would have gone up the Western approaches and along the English Channel. The straits of Dover are at the Eastern end of the English Channel, about 140 miles, or the best part of a day's sailing, east of Cowes. Cottonshirtτ 17:56, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

Section 3 of the article has a confused time line and contradictionsBo

Both of the following sentences appear -

On May 10, 1839, Cooper published History of the Navy of the United States of America.

and

In 1856, five years after Cooper's death his History of the Navy of the United States of America was published.

Other sentences deal with Cooper's works out of chronological order. It seems as if this section grew by slow accretion into a somewhat incoherent list. Does any editor of this article have a handle on where things began to go wrong, and who could easily reset this section? Neonorange (talk) 00:28, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

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"Legacy" section badly disorganized

It veers all over the place from criticism to unsupported claims of praise to awards and honors. Needs to be cleaned up, and divided into material about his literary impact (what most people reading this care about) and secondarily any posthumous honors like stamps and buildings.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ<  17:15, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

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Requested move 8 August 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. Speedy close per the two comments below. There is virtually no chance this proposal would be successful Station1 (talk) 06:32, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

---

James Fenimore Cooper → James Cooper (writer) – per Wikipedia:Article titles#Use commonly recognizable names 2600:1700:6180:6290:24FD:8ADE:56DE:6D19 (talk) 00:58, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose: "James Fenimore Cooper" is very recognizable. In fact I believe it is more recognizable than "James Cooper". I suggest a speedy close as not moved, since I'm pretty confident that the current title is the primary way this author is referred to in sources (e.g., by the James Fenimore Cooper Society, and I think this proposal is just a waste of time with no chance of success. The proposer has provided no evidence whatsoever that their proposed title is more recognizable or even that it is used by anyone. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 02:56, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose per BarrelProof. This proposal is akin to nominating Robert Louis Stevenson → Robert Stevenson (writer), Edgar Rice Burroughs → Edgar Burroughs, John Greenleaf Whittier → John Whittier, Ralph Waldo Emerson → Ralph Emerson, Henry Wadsworth Longfellow → Henry Longfellow, Samuel Taylor Coleridge → Samuel Coleridge, William Butler Yeats → William Yeats, etc. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 03:19, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Genre on Wikidata

He was not only a "Historical Novel" writer, but also a Non-fiction writer as well. I think it should be added, in the respective WD item. I'd do it myself but I don't know how. - Joaquin89uy (talk) 03:24, 22 October 2022 (UTC)