Talk:James Jamerson
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Untitled
editJames Jamerson was a good bassist, and he did record Stevie Wonder's "I Was Made To Love Her". Ask anyone, look it up anywhere (except Carol Kaye material), or just listen and hear for yourself.
Carol Kaye controversy
editI reckon someone should add a section on Carol Kaye's claims that she was the backing bassist on a lot of tracks that are Jamersons. http://rateyourmusic.com/board_message/message_id_is_1307107 is a good link to look up —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.143.172.100 (talk) 14:33, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
No one should be able to forget she made the claims. When added to this article someone from Kaye's camp invariably comes to remove it. I did annotate on Stevie Wonder's I Was Made To Love Her that Carol also claims it. Let's see how long it stays up. BassLand — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.175.167.192 (talk) 01:52, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
Hello, I removed the aforementioned parenthetical comment regarding I was Made to Love Her. At first I was just going to tag it as citation needed, but saying that she mixed herself up with the beach boys' version and that she didn't even play on that one either does come across as a bit snarky. And frankly not relevant to Jamerson's cultural contributions. While it was hoopla at the time, Slutsky accumulated enough evidence during the lawsuits that the inclusion of Kaye's claims aren't appropriate for the Jamerson page in it's current state of development; perhaps if there was a more in depth section on "posthumous legacy?" In the meantime Kaye has many disputed claims. Barring legal validation of her claims, her page is really where any discussion of this belongs. Reve (talk) 19:38, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
What's Going On
editAccording to the documentary on the Funk Brothers, Standing In the Shadows of Motown, Jamerson recorded the bass part to What's Going On while lying on his back on the floor. That's an impressive feat, but I wasn't sure if it had a place in this article. Any thoughts? --24.75.136.130 14:26, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
- The music business is full of stories 'bout musicians playing under the influence of various substances. Amongst other things, I have actually seen a name guitarist slide backwards off a stool (he had to sit on a stool 'cos he couldn't stand), pissed as a newt, in the middle of a solo and continue playing his solo on his back. But unless it can be reliably referenced it has no place on Wikipedia.--Technopat (talk) 08:34, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
++++WHAT'S GOING ON++++++ Same thing heard here, but even more imcredible was that according to the documentary, Marvin Gaye also brought him in the studio drunk as a skunk, and that's when the song was recorder and he did actually play that bas line on his back. Listening to the song today, it's still hard to believe that he kept pace, and how amazing it still sounds.
What's Going On==
editI think the story has a place in the article since it shows the lengths to which Marvin Gaye would go to have Jamerson play and how talented he was. If you don't mind I'd like to add it as part of a school project. Drj17 (talk) 01:45, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
Fair use rationale for Image:Jamerson 4.jpg
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Jamerson and innovation
editGenerally, music articles on Wikipedia seem to be written by individuals with good knowledge in one area of music but often lacking a more comprehensive understanding. For instance, the notion that "the role of the bass in popular music...until that time largely consisted of root notes, fifths and simple repetitive patterns" would be news to Jimmy Blanton, Ray Brown, Oscar Pettiford, Charles Mingus, and many other bassists playing more than just root notes and simple repetitions within popular music before the rock and roll era. Ascribing that shift to Jamerson is inaccurate, and something to which he himself no doubt would readily disagree. That Jamerson was masterful and innovative is a given, and saying that he is an innovator in the playing of the bass guitar, the Fender bass being only about a decade old by the time he picked it up in the early 1960s, would be more accurate.PJtP (talk) 00:28, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
Response to BetacommandBot: this is why the article specifies "popular music," which is a dumb term, but most people understand it to be a separate category from Jazz, Classica, modern music, etc..
Re: Jimmy Blanton, Ray Brown, Oscar Pettiford, Charles Mingus,. All of whom were primarily upright bassist. While Jamerson played the upright that is not what is being discussed here. The role of the ELECTRIC bass (For which Jamerson is noted in this instance), the statement rings true in my opinion. (BassLand) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.91.240.74 (talk) 14:51, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
- I agree with PStP. As written, the section talked about "bass" playing and not "electric bass" playing. Also, Jamerson's importance has little to do with what he played (his instrument: acoustic or electric bass) but is about what he played with his instrument. But... the sophisticated bass playing of jazz musicians had not been noticeable or relevant in pop music for many years; popular music had moved away from the jazz idiom. I have edited the article to make clear that JJ's innovation occurred in the context of then-current popular music such as R&B/rock'n'roll/country music. Many have indeed said he brought a jazz sensibility to his playing, but I have not heard anybody say that he was expanding the role or style of the bass in jazz. (but this article isn't about jazz) David Couch (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 19:15, 25 May 2014 (UTC)
Influence on bass players: this section is confusingly written. It starts "Prominent bassists who have claimed Jamerson as a primary influence include James Brown's bassist Fred Thomas, Bernard Odum, Bootsy Collins, John Paul Jones, Tim Drummond, Sweet Charles Sherrell, ..." It reads as if "James Brown's bass player" was Fred Thomas. He was, but so was Odum, collins, drummond, and sherrel. John Paul Jones was not, nor were the others. This should be rewritten (repunctuated) to clarify.
- I have made some edits to the “Influence” section to tidy this up.——-Design (talk) 06:17, 12 March 2018 (UTC)
James Jamerson Discography
editExtended content
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The following might be a more complete discography of James Jamerson: A Place In The Sun - Stevie Wonder [album version]
The Reflections - (Just Like) Romeo and Juliet * 1963 Doin' Mickey's Monkey - The Miracles * |
this sentence here:
editHe eventually performed on nearly 30 No. 1 pop hits -- surpassing the record commonly attributed to The Beatles. On the R&B charts, nearly 70 of his performances went to the top.
what means nearly, please some real proof, because paul mccartney performed on 29 number one singles, 20 with the beatles and 9 by himself, measured by the american top 100 charts.
so, give credit where credit is deserved. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.173.224.53 (talk) 22:20, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
"with the Beatles" I still think 29 is less than thirty. the nine McCartney played on his own records are clearly not part of the statement. At best it implies a tie.(BassLand) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.91.240.74 (talk) 14:55, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
Birth Year
editHis tombstone lists his birth year as 1939, not 1936, so he was 45 when he died. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.10.55.53 (talk) 01:16, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
His instruments
editThere is a belief that Jamerson played three different Fender Precision basses: The 1957 ‘black beauty’; the 1961/62 with a ‘sunburst’ finish, the Fender "spaghetti logo", "clay dots" (and a chipped “tortoise shell” pick guard in some photos); and the 1964/66 bass with a different ‘sunburst’ finish, the Fender "transitional logo", "pearloid dots", and a “chunkier" pattern on the "tortoise shell" Pick guard. All three were stolen. I am looking for proper sources to cite. ----Design (talk) 07:51, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- All three basses are clearly identifiable from photos, by those who know details of the changing cosmetic aspects of Fender basses. Currently this article, and other sources, only discuss the 1957 and 1961/62 basses, and claim the 1961/62 bass was the one which was inscribed “Funk Machine”. The “Funk Machine” is more likely to be the 1964/66 bass. Design (talk) 23:29, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
- Bammesk maybe you can find a proper source for the “three basses”? It would be great to correct the record (as I understand it). Design (talk) 21:28, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
- Design, the 1957-Precision and the "Funk Machine" are already properly sourced in the article. The third instrument is most likely this: Link 1, Link 2, a 1961-Precision auctioned in 2017 for $68,750. Jamerson had it until around 1968, then he gave it to bassist Billy Hayes. It looks similar to the "Funk Machine". Obviously it wouldn't have "FUNK" carved on the back. I will add this instrument to the article later. Here are my unsourced speculations, they won't be added to the article:
- Design, the 1957-Precision and the "Funk Machine" are already properly sourced in the article. The third instrument is most likely this: Link 1, Link 2, a 1961-Precision auctioned in 2017 for $68,750. Jamerson had it until around 1968, then he gave it to bassist Billy Hayes. It looks similar to the "Funk Machine". Obviously it wouldn't have "FUNK" carved on the back. I will add this instrument to the article later. Here are my unsourced speculations, they won't be added to the article:
- Bammesk maybe you can find a proper source for the “three basses”? It would be great to correct the record (as I understand it). Design (talk) 21:28, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
- Speculation 1: Sources say he was particular about his instruments, didn't modify them or change strings, didn't do much maintenance in order not to change the sound, he tried to emulate the sound of an upright bass. The famed "funk machine" was his primary instrument for quality work. His previous instrument, the 1957-Precision, was stolen, so he likely kept a backup instrument for use on the road and live shows, where there is chance of damage and loss. The instrument auctioned in 2017 is his backup (secondary) bass and was given to Hayes. It makes sense that he would keep his primary instrument (the "funk machine").
- Speculation 2: A few days ago I added a "sunburst Precision" in Jamerson's article and stated it was stolen, per Slutsky's book. Slutsky's work is partly based on interviews with Jamerson's friends and colleagues. There is a chance the oral accounts aren't perfect. Perhaps the so-called-stolen "sunburst Precision" wasn't stolen, perhaps that is the instrument which was auctioned in 2017 (his secondary instrument).
- Bammesk (talk) 01:40, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
- Speculation 1: Sources say he was particular about his instruments, didn't modify them or change strings, didn't do much maintenance in order not to change the sound, he tried to emulate the sound of an upright bass. The famed "funk machine" was his primary instrument for quality work. His previous instrument, the 1957-Precision, was stolen, so he likely kept a backup instrument for use on the road and live shows, where there is chance of damage and loss. The instrument auctioned in 2017 is his backup (secondary) bass and was given to Hayes. It makes sense that he would keep his primary instrument (the "funk machine").
- Hi Bammesk, thanks for your reply. As you say the 1957, the 1961/62, and the 1962 Hayes bass are all sourced. The issue is that there is ‘original research’ on several internet bass forums such as ‘Talk Bass’(https://www.talkbass.com/threads/james-jamerons-funk-machine-wrong-year.1185714/) that show photographic evidence of a 1964/66 bass that is MORE LIKELY to be the ‘Funk Machine’ bass. The Slutksy book does not mention this mid-60s bass, and, I think, incorrectly identifies the 61/62 bass as the ‘Funk Machine’. I think this ‘original research’ is credible and have been waiting for it to be discussed or reported in a citable publication. Additionally, if Slutsky’s book is wrong about this then it may have lessened the chances of the 61/62 and the 64/66 basses of being found. Design (talk) 12:46, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- Design, I don't have anything to offer on that, but I keep that in mind as I search though. Cheers. Bammesk (talk) 00:52, 18 April 2019 (UTC)
- Design, this Oct. 2018 writing addresses your points: [1]. Bammesk (talk) 20:28, 28 April 2019 (UTC)
- Design, waybacktimes.com isn't a reliable source on music, author writes: "my own conclusions", which is opinion, not fact. Bammesk (talk) 01:30, 2 May 2019 (UTC)
- Bammesk, Thanks for your efforts. I hope reliable sources will emerge in future. Design (talk) 04:33, 20 November 2020 (UTC)
The Musicians Hall of Fame and Museum in Nashville has a 1961 p-bass on display that they say is Jamerson’s! It is the one with the chipped pickguard and clay dots! You can see it in the display case on the Museum’s homepage [2]. Design (talk) 07:35, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
- It matches the 2017 auctioned instrument noted above. I updated the article. Bammesk (talk) 01:16, 27 July 2023 (UTC)
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List of bassists influenced by Jamerson
editThis list seems far too long. Perhaps we can come up with some criteria to get it down to a manageable size? Dlabtot (talk) 17:33, 14 June 2017 (UTC)
RfC - age of James Jamerson at his death.
edit- The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
According to his New York Times obituary, he died in 1983 at the age of 45. It doesn't list a date of birth.
According to his Rock and Roll Hall of Fame biography, he was born in 1936, and died in 1983 at the age of 47.
What should the article say? PS - be sure to read the threaded discussion below. Dlabtot (talk) 01:48, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
Survey
edit- Born in 1936, died in 1983. Isaidnoway (talk) 19:41, 22 June 2017 (UTC)
- Both: "Born in either 1936 or 1938, and died in 1983." That accounts vary just is for some folks, and unless you can find a third source which explains the existence of two dates or have overwhelming predominance of one so the other appears to be an outlier error or typo, simply show the fact of discrepancies. Other folks have been known to under-report their age (e.g. actress to get parts), or to over-report (here, perhaps to join WW I before legitimate), but there may be a later interview that explains things. Markbassett (talk) 23:54, 22 June 2017 (UTC)
- When two reliable sources offer competing dates of birth, report them both (as Markbassett indicated). See Betty Shabazz for an example where I did this. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 00:57, 23 June 2017 (UTC)
- b 36 d 83 (Summoned by bot) per the source below. d.g. L3X1 (distænt write) )evidence( 13:58, 23 June 2017 (UTC)
- Report both, until further evidence arises. ----Design (talk) 00:37, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
- Both, per the above. This is standard operating procedure, until (if ever) a preponderance of independent reliable sources are found to favor a particular date, or new investigation by credible sources debunks the alternative date. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 00:03, 25 June 2017 (UTC)
- b. 1936 The discussion below makes it clear that the 1936 date is correct, and the 1938 date is a known error. --DavidK93 (talk) 14:29, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
- b. 1936 the preponderance of the sources below show that this is the least likely to be incorrect way to represent his year of birth.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 16:36, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
- 1936 on 31 January per government records (Social Security Death Index is fairly widely used for such data). {"United States Social Security Death Index," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:V9M1-LZ6 : 20 May 2014), James Jamerson, Aug 1983; citing U.S. Social Security Administration, Death Master File, database (Alexandria, Virginia: National Technical Information Service, ongoing). Collect (talk) 13:17, 28 June 2017 (UTC)
- Both - "Born in either 1936 or 1938, and died in 1983." per Markbassett (talk · contribs). Me-123567-Me (talk) 13:06, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
- Born 1936 - Overwhelming number of RSs in favour of '36 in the thread below. In addition, Collect's family search result clinches it. Normally we don't like to use primary sources but US Social Security birth data is hard to misinterpret. Jschnur (talk) 05:15, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
Threaded discussion
editIf anyone has access to a copy of Standing in the Shadows of Motown: The Life and Music of Legendary Bassist James Jamerson, I would consider that a definitive source. Dlabtot (talk) 21:42, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
- I accessed it through Google Books, it says (Part 1: Funky Beginnings, page 3): James' original birthdate was January 29, 1938, but in the late seventies, after seeing his birth certificate for the first time, he discovered, much to his dismay, that he had lost two years out of his life. He was actually born on January 29, 1936.[1]
- On another note, this article states that: Long troubled by alcoholism, Jamerson died of complications stemming from cirrhosis of the liver, heart failure and pneumonia on August 2, 1983, in Los Angeles at the age of 45, and uses The New York Times obit to support that sentence, but the obit from the NYT actually says - A coroner's spokesman attributed Mr. Jamerson's death, at the University of Southern California Medical Center at Los Angeles County General Hospital, to natural causes. Isaidnoway (talk) 19:39, 22 June 2017 (UTC)
- Additional sources for 1936:
- Greenville News
- Detroit Rock and Roll Magazine
- Detroit Metro Times
- Fender Bass Player
- Music Radar
- Charleston Jazz Initiative
- USA Today
- South Carolina Encyclopedia
- Motown Encyclopedia
- The Bass Book
- Funk Guitar and Bass: Know the Players, Play the Music
- R&B Bass Masters: The Way They Play
- The Quest for the Melodic Electric Bass: From Jamerson to Spenner Isaidnoway (talk) 16:47, 25 June 2017 (UTC)
Pre-closure questions
editIn light of the bunch of sources mentioned in the sub-section just above, would anyone of @L3X1, Design, Markbassett, Malik Shabazz, and SMcCandlish: like to reconsider their !votes?Winged Blades Godric 10:54, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
- I suggest use the actual quote from the book Standing in the Shadows of Motown that says Jamerson discovered late in life the 1936 date.----Design (talk) 11:29, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
- Unchanged. L3X1 (distænt write) )evidence( 13:24, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
- As Design suggested, I would recommend including 1936 and adding a content note about the confusion, with the quote from Standing in the Shadows of Motown. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 16:22, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
- Yep, that works for me, too. It's more encyclopedically informative anyway, since it informs our readers why there's any question about the matter. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 22:00, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
References
- ^ James Jamerson (1989). Standing in the Shadows of Motown: The Life and Music of Legendary Bassist James Jamerson. Dr. Licks Pub. p. 3. ISBN 978-0-88188-882-9.
Article rating
editI revised article's rating (version) to B-class per ores. Bammesk (talk) 16:53, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
List of credits section
editI removed a recent addition in this diff, see edit summary. A discography type of list belongs in its own article. He very likely has over 500 credits. Motown released 537 singles in 1960s [3]. He performed on most of these. His credits also include album releases, non-Motown recordings, and his 1970s and early-1980s recordings. Sidenote on the added list: Gloria Gaynor album was by his son [4], Boz Scaggs and Ben E. King albums are in [5], [6], [7], [8], others are noted in ricksuchow.com. Bammesk (talk) 02:34, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
He used one finger.
editBut did he actually only use one finger? 69.206.130.192 (talk) 04:41, 26 May 2023 (UTC)
The Funk Machine, maybe not a '62
editI don't know if there is a reliable source we can cite for this, it's quite late and I'm quite tired, but some people familiar with Fender basses have identified that The Funk Machine is probably not a 1962 model, but rather either a '64, '65, or '66 based on both photographs and statements made by Jamerson about it being new when he got it alongside reports from others that he got it in 1966.
https://www.talkbass.com/threads/james-jamerons-funk-machine-wrong-year.1185714/ 2A02:C7C:C4CD:A500:A4AA:31A2:FA81:F794 (talk) 22:22, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- to add on:
- Although I don't see any particular evidence in the source supporting this additional theory, one (terrible website) source suggests there were two guitars known as The Funk Machine, the first was a '60 bought in '60 which was stolen 6 years later, being replaced by a '66 which Jamerson then wrote 'Funk' into the heel. https://www.waybacktimes.com/music/the-genius-of-james-jamerson/ - It'd seem the '60 Funk Machine being referred to is actually the '61 bass that Hayes sold at auction?
- It's a pretty poor quality source there and giving evidence to the theory is entirely OR/SYNTH on my part here, I don't know if a good source has reported this or not, but it would make sense. 2A02:C7C:C4CD:A500:A4AA:31A2:FA81:F794 (talk) 22:30, 29 October 2023 (UTC)