Talk:James Martin Hayes

Requested move 21 June 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved DrStrauss talk 09:35, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

• As a result of the MRV, Thomas Collins (bishop) has been moved as proposed and the others should be renominated separately. Ben—Salvidrim! ✉ 20:42, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

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James Martin Hayes → James Hayes (archbishop of Halifax) – Per WP:COMMONNAME and WP:BISHOP. 142.160.131.202 (talk) 02:15, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

This is a contested technical request (permalink). Anthony Appleyard (talk) 03:46, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

• And also:
  • James Hayes (bishop) → James Hayes (archbishop of Cagayan de Oro) – There is another notable bishop with the name James Hayes; disambiguating per WP:BISHOP. After the move, all of the existing links to the article will need to be corrected and then James Hayes (bishop) should be redirected to James Hayes. 142.160.131.202 (talk) 01:46, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
  • Richard Smith (bishop) → Richard Smith (vicar apostolic of England) – There is another notable bishop with the name Richard Smith; disambiguating per WP:BISHOP. After the move, all of the existing links to the article will need to be corrected and then Richard Smith (bishop) should be redirected to Richard Smith#Religion. 142.160.131.202 (talk) 01:42, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
  • Thomas Collins (bishop) (currently a redirect to Thomas Collins) → Thomas Collins (bishop of Meath) – There are other notable bishops with the name Thomas Collins; disambiguating per WP:BISHOP. After the move, all of the existing links to the article will need to be corrected and then Thomas Collins (bishop) should be redirected to Thomas Collins. 142.160.131.202 (talk) 01:42, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
  • Thomas Christopher Collins (currently a redirect to Thomas Collins (cardinal)) → Thomas Collins (archbishop of Toronto) – Per WP:COMMONNAME and WP:BISHOP. Note that the current name doesn't qualify for WP:NATURAL as the middle name is not "commonly" used. 142.160.131.202 (talk) 23:15, 20 June 2017 (UTC)
    • @TonyBallioni and 142.160.131.202: Queried move requests Anthony Appleyard (talk) 03:46, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
    • All of these should be discussed because some of them are at natural disambiguations already, which might be preferable. I'm not sure if combining the RMs with similar names would be preferred, so moving down here to get a second opinion. TonyBallioni (talk) 02:54, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
      • @TonyBallioni: Three of the five are not at natural disambiguations, even if we assume James Martin Hayes and Thomas Christopher Collins meet the standards of WP:NATURAL. And as these are merely technical requests, there is no need to move into a more formal discussion unless they are contested – there is no presumption that they meet the criteria of WP:NATURAL when no one has made the argument that they do (unless, of course, you are). 142.160.131.202 (talk) 03:25, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
        • The two that are possible natural disambiguations are tied to two of the others. Richard Smith also involves another person, so it would be best to discuss it. TonyBallioni (talk) 03:41, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
          • @TonyBallioni: To clarify, are you contesting the moves because you have an objection, or are you just concerned that someone else could theoretically have a concern? If the latter, the moves can go through as they are being proposed here out of technical necessity but otherwise qualify as undiscussed moves, and in the event that there is a concern, WP:RMUM allows for a reversion. 142.160.131.202 (talk) 03:50, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

I'm unclear my thoughts on each of the specific cases at this point, leaning oppose on the ones that have a middle name associated with them, because those very well could be natural disambiguations, which I generally prefer that to parenthetical. Thomas Collins (bishop) is problematic because Thomas Christopher Collins is certainly more notable than he is. It could use discussion from additional parties as part of an RM, which is why I opposed the technical request. TonyBallioni (talk) 03:59, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

@TonyBallioni: Putting aside James Martin Hayes and Thomas Christopher Collins, would that mean that you would support moving James Hayes (bishop), Richard Smith (bishop), and Thomas Collins (bishop) given that each of those titles are ambiguous (there being more than one bishop by those names, which is the case irrespective of whether or not the other bishops' articles includes middle names in their titles)? 142.160.131.202 (talk) 04:16, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

And with respect to the other two, WP:NATURAL, which you cite, applies only to "an alternative name that the subject is also commonly called in English reliable sources". Looking at Thomas Christopher Collins, for example, a quick glance through the first several pages of Google search results for the terms Thomas Collins bishop OR archbishop demonstrate that the inclusion of the middle name is not "common". While you may "generally prefer" natural disambiguation, that cannot override the broader consensus behind the existing guideline. 142.160.131.202 (talk) 04:28, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

• @Anthony Appleyard: Will you be placing notices on the other four articles affected too? 142.160.131.202 (talk) 04:18, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
  •  Done Anthony Appleyard (talk) 16:47, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose move of Thomas Christopher Collins and James Martin Hayes as a valid natural disambiguation (the full name is listed in Collin's official bio and all of Hayes' obits also use the same name, so both meet the criteria of a less used name that is also used in English sourcing (and its far from obscure). Support Thomas Collins (bishop) to Thomas Collins (bishop of Meath) for reasons mentioned above (current cardinal is far more significant, so having this be the default bishop could confuse the reader). Neutral on the others, but these are not uncontroversial at this point, so the full RM process should happen. TonyBallioni (talk) 04:49, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

@TonyBallioni: If you support moving Thomas Collins (bishop), why would you not support Richard Smith (bishop) as well? Richard Smith (bishop) does not appear to be significantly more notable than Richard William Smith. Moreover, where in the policy on article titles does it suggest that notability should be a factor in cases where there is no primary topic? (To be clear, I do not intend that as a rhetorical question.) Between this and your self-described 'general preference' for natural disambiguation, it would seem that you have your own set of criteria apart from that established by a wider consensus and codified in our policies and guidelines.

Regarding your link to Collins' biography on the archdiocesan website, you will find that is common for the full name to be included in diocesan biographies even when that is not the commonly used name. And even were that not the case, one usage does not establish that the name is "commonly" used, as required by WP:NATURAL. One way to ascertain the way his name is commonly used would be to have a look through the Google search results linked above. 142.160.131.202 (talk) 05:15, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

We are clearly going to disagree on this, but here is my general view: the fact that middle names are in common use for bishops across diocesan websites of many bishops, not just this one, suggest that it is a valid natural disambiguation under our article title policy because it is commonly used in official biographies to the point where it is well known. NATURAL does not require that it be the most commonly used term, simply that it is common and not obscure, which it certainly isn't for most bishops.

Re: Collins, I didn't say notability in the oppose above, but significance, which is in fact part of WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, and a cardinal certainly has more long-term significance than a non-cardinal. Primary topic also mentions notability as well as part of the same prong.TonyBallioni (talk) 05:23, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

My apologies, I should have said significance rather than notability. And I'm aware that it is WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, which is exactly part of the point I was making. This is not an situation in which we have a primary topic, so apart from provisions solely related to situations in which there is a primary topic, where in the policy on article titles does it suggest that significance should be a factor in cases where there is no primary topic? (As before, I don't intend the question to be rhetorical.)

Additionally, I should have noted previously that even the archdiocesan biography taken alone doesn't seem to suggest that James Martin Hayes would be a commonly used name. The middle name is included there for the same reason as a bunch of other largely trivial biographical information (e.g., birth date, date of each of his three ordinations) – it's a formal biography. It's included for the same reason why Wikipedia would include the middle name of someone who never, never uses their middle name in the lede (and, for that matter, why Collins' middle name will be included in the lede irrespective of the outcome of this process). But notably, the archdiocesan biography uses the following as its title: "His Eminence Thomas Cardinal Collins". They chose to include his formal title but not his middle name. You can't suggest that is a coincidence. To try to use this biography to establish that James Martin Hayes is "an alternative name that the subject is also commonly called" makes as much sense as citing his birth certificate.

Finally, with respect to your assertion that, "NATURAL does not require that it be the most commonly used term, simply that it is common and not obscure", "common" and "not obscure" are incredibly different. If, as you suggest, this meets the criterion of "common" and said criterion is the same thing as "not obscure", I would struggle to think of someone whose full name could not be considered "not obscure". Such an interpretation is certainly not in line with the intent of the writers of WP:NATURAL as, if it were, the same result could have been accomplished by omitting the "common" criterion. 142.160.131.202 (talk) 05:56, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

CBC, Vatican, Toronto Star, New York Times on Collins. Its certainly common enough to be a valid natural disambiguation. Hayes is more complex since it is obits, but there are enough of them and from sources such as CCCB that I think it is enough to be common under NATURAL. TonyBallioni (talk) 06:07, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.