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- Where did the "de" come from?
- This composer appears in the French, German and Polish Wikipedias and in Polski słownik biograficzny as "Jan Nepomucen Bobrowicz"—not "de Bobrowicz".
- Nihil novi (talk) 20:11, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
- It is true that you find both spellings, with and without the 'de'. It appears to me, though, that the "de" refers to older and more serious sources. Correct me if I am wrong. In Josef Zuth's Handbuch der Laute und Gitarre (Vienna, 1926–8), he is called (in German) 'Johann Nepomuk von Bobrowitz', the 'von' resembling the 'de'. In the bibliographic name listings of the German national library, he is written with 'de': https://portal.dnb.de/opac.htm?method=simpleSearch&cqlMode=true&query=idn%3D119348047. The British Library has three works, of which two are listed with 'de' and one without. The French national library has three items (1980s/90s issues), all without 'de'. Some recent critical editions of his music use the 'de', look here: http://digitalguitarstore.com/print-editions/j-n-de-bobrowicz-selected-works-volume-ii/prod_11.html (and this is co-edited by a Polish musicologist). Most CD recordings of his music do likewise, see https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Roch-Modrzejewski-Fantaias/hnum/2639855 (by a Polish guitarist). And I see him spelled this way in the repertory of Polish guitarists such as Marcin Dylla: http://www.poloniamusic.com/MarcinDylla.html. But no doubt, you would find many examples of publications and listings without 'de', too. But – if the general consensus here is that the article should be changed back to the former version, I wouldn't object. – Aklein62 (talk) 11:49, 11 August 2015 (UTC)
- The article, I think, should be moved back (it shouldn't have been moved in the first place without discussion). While some older sources use de, based on my experience I'd call it an error, introduced by someone who thought it would sound better (historical marketing). This is not an uncommon practice for that era. And anyway, de is French, and he is a Polish composer, who lived in Germany. I see no justification for de, through I think we can mention its used in the lead or in a footnote. I'd go with the most RS bio of him we have quoted, which is the PSB cited by Nn above. If it uses the -de version, so should we. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 05:25, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
- I second that. 'de' is someone's baseless fantasy, duplicated by ignorance. Staszek Lem (talk) 21:52, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
- Okay, I'll move it back in the next few minutes. My apologies. – Aklein62 (talk) 07:32, 18 August 2015 (UTC)
- I second that. 'de' is someone's baseless fantasy, duplicated by ignorance. Staszek Lem (talk) 21:52, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
- The article, I think, should be moved back (it shouldn't have been moved in the first place without discussion). While some older sources use de, based on my experience I'd call it an error, introduced by someone who thought it would sound better (historical marketing). This is not an uncommon practice for that era. And anyway, de is French, and he is a Polish composer, who lived in Germany. I see no justification for de, through I think we can mention its used in the lead or in a footnote. I'd go with the most RS bio of him we have quoted, which is the PSB cited by Nn above. If it uses the -de version, so should we. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 05:25, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
- It is true that you find both spellings, with and without the 'de'. It appears to me, though, that the "de" refers to older and more serious sources. Correct me if I am wrong. In Josef Zuth's Handbuch der Laute und Gitarre (Vienna, 1926–8), he is called (in German) 'Johann Nepomuk von Bobrowitz', the 'von' resembling the 'de'. In the bibliographic name listings of the German national library, he is written with 'de': https://portal.dnb.de/opac.htm?method=simpleSearch&cqlMode=true&query=idn%3D119348047. The British Library has three works, of which two are listed with 'de' and one without. The French national library has three items (1980s/90s issues), all without 'de'. Some recent critical editions of his music use the 'de', look here: http://digitalguitarstore.com/print-editions/j-n-de-bobrowicz-selected-works-volume-ii/prod_11.html (and this is co-edited by a Polish musicologist). Most CD recordings of his music do likewise, see https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Roch-Modrzejewski-Fantaias/hnum/2639855 (by a Polish guitarist). And I see him spelled this way in the repertory of Polish guitarists such as Marcin Dylla: http://www.poloniamusic.com/MarcinDylla.html. But no doubt, you would find many examples of publications and listings without 'de', too. But – if the general consensus here is that the article should be changed back to the former version, I wouldn't object. – Aklein62 (talk) 11:49, 11 August 2015 (UTC)