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Talk:Japanese conjugation/Archive 2

< Talk:Japanese conjugation
Latest comment: 3 years ago by JKVeganAbroad in topic Overhaul Completed
Archive 1Archive 2Archive 3

Clarifications

Latest comment: 3 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

the text indicates: "Verb conjugates are often grouped into two categories, according to whether the last letter of the stem is a vowel or consonant (when romanized)" and then proceeds to exemplify with two verbs whose stem both end in a vowel and for which the stem is not clear: 

 Type I: consonant-stems (五段動詞, godandōshi)(V5), and
 Type II: vowel-stems (一段動詞, ichidandōshi, いる iru,える eru forms)(V1)

In my view Type I ends in a vowel "o" in "go", but so does Type II: "i" in "ichi". This needs clarification — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ekkis (talk • contribs) 08:47, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

I've corrected this by removing the obsolete "consonant/vowel" terminology in the article, switching over to the more commonly used (and native Japanese terms) "godan/ichidan" terminology.
Indeed, "consonant stems" and "vowel stems" are problematic. There are many reasons listed in the article about godan and ichidan verbs § Consonant and vowel nomenclature
JKVeganAbroad (talk) 08:30, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

Urgent Overhaul 2021-April

Latest comment: 3 years ago35 comments1 person in discussion

Well, it's been 16 years since this page was created! There's been a lot of gradual improvements to this article over the years. Indeed, however, the current state of the article is overwhelming and confusing.

Now is the time for an overhaul.

Commentary on this talk page's archive

There are lots of mixed opinions on this talk page's archive. Many people raise some good points that—even though they commented over a decade ago—are still helpful to the improvement of this article today. I'm responding to these ones:

  • @振霖 "What this article ought to be discussing are the different conjugation paradigms of Japanese, not the different combinations of verbs and particles."
Agreed. First and foremost, this article should explain concisely and with visual simplicity how to conjugate verbs.
Done. JKVeganAbroad (talk) 08:53, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
  • @Winterkoninkje "there are overwhelming patterns in how the different verbs and adjectives inflect, patterns which are wholly ignored in the current presentation"
Agreed. At this point, there seems to be too comprehensive in some places and demonstrates an example with every possible verb suffix. The tables are too big and overwhelming to look at. The patterns simply need to be made clear so that fewer examples are required.
Done. All conjugation tables are uniform and concise. JKVeganAbroad (talk) 07:08, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
  • @75.72.186.171 "Looking at the tables, almost all of them have the same verbs, which is good, cause it will help the reader understand conjugating better"
Agreed. Using the same verbs makes in different conjugation tables—if they're in the same order—would make comparisons easier, and hopefully emerge with a quicker understanding.
Done. All conjugation tables are uniform and concise. JKVeganAbroad (talk) 07:08, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
  • @Ethanpet113 "when to use certain tenses is needed, just going right into "here is how the tenses are conjugated" is very unhelpful. Summary tables should probably also follow the body text of sections, not the other way around"
Agreed. It appears some introductory bodies of text have been added before tables in some sections, but this needs to be completed for all sections.
Done. JKVeganAbroad (talk) 08:53, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
  • @bse3 "I think this page needs an overhaul. It is really hard to wade through to find a simple answer."
Agreed. If this article is to be an efficient source of reference, one should be able to find a simple answer in under a minute.
Done. JKVeganAbroad (talk) 08:53, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
  • @Uno b4 "this article is now called "verb conjugation" and yet it still includes adjectives" …
Agreed. There is already an article detailing the "declension/conjugation/inflection" of Japanese adjectives, so I'm partial to removing "adjective conjugations" from all tables in this article.
Done. JKVeganAbroad (talk) 08:53, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
  • @TrueTsumetai "I think the various forms of "desu/です" should be added to the tables"
Disagree.
Some people feel that です (desu) is a verb, or that it's a shortened version of でございます (degozaimasu), which is basically a polite variant of ある (aru)… but no matter how you look at it, です is basically an extraordinary exception that doesn't follow the conventional rules of conjugation.
However, it's still sort-of a kind of verb, isn't it? And it's a major part of the Japanese language. Instead, it should have its own dedicated sub-section with its own table of conjugations. This will make it easier as a point-of-reference on the page.
Done. § Copula: da and desu — JKVeganAbroad (talk) 18:20, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
  • @KägeTorä - (影虎) "着替える is a compound verb, made up of 着る+替える. There is no need to have a compound verb in an instructional table of grammatical endings. I don't see why a simpler verb such as 食べる cannot be used"
Agreed. Compound verbs in this reference article is ridiculous, since their conjugation patterns are no different from simple verbs.
Done. All conjugation tables are uniform and concise, compound verbs are not included. However, I don't object to such verbs being used in example sentences, if the need arises. JKVeganAbroad (talk) 07:08, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

Summary of problems with the article

  • "Summary of conjugations"
I don't believe this article should have a "summary of conjugations". The conjugation subheadings themselves should be the briefest, best possible summaries of themselves. Also, the possible conjugations are so numerous, how would we decide which ones are the "most useful?"
Done. Removed section. JKVeganAbroad (talk) 17:53, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
If we simply "must" have a summary, I suggest instead that we have an "example of conjugations" that span the 5 rows of the gojūon kana table. A nice example of such a table is on the Japanese godan and ichidan verbs § Terminology page. Perhaps we could copy that over verbatim.
Done. § Verb groups JKVeganAbroad (talk) 17:53, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
  • "Table key"
This whole section is a little excessive, isn't it? We don't need it.
Done. Removed section. JKVeganAbroad (talk) 17:53, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
  • "Imperfective"
This section has a very good introduction body that explains the purpose of the conjugation with a couple of functional example sentences in Japanese with an English translation. Then it has a simple, lightly populated table. This is a good structure to follow for all other categories, however it's not without room for improvement. For example:
(私は)買い物する(watashi wa) kaimono suru: "(I) shop", or "(I) will shop". (Japanese pronouns are usually omitted when it is clear about whom the speaker is talking.)
Firstly, we should avoid using parenthesis around optional words in examples. We should either commit to the optional word—with no parenthesis—or delete the word altogether. We need our examples to be straightforward.
Done. JKVeganAbroad (talk) 17:53, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
Secondly, this bonus irrelevant information about the usage of Japanese pronouns is not the target information that the reader is seeking. People don't research "verb conjugation reference pages" to learn about the frequency or implicit nature of pronouns. They will search for "Japanese pronouns" to learn such things.
Done. Removed irrelevant information. JKVeganAbroad (talk) 17:53, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
Thirdly, Wikipedia isn't a language class, and adding extra information like this makes a simple example sentence appear more complicated.
Done. JKVeganAbroad (talk) 07:08, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
Fourthly, about the simple table, it could be made clearer, and should omit example sentences to make the table simpler.
Done. § Imperfective: Example sentences JKVeganAbroad (talk) 17:53, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
  • "Perfective"
The introduction awkwardly begins as a continuation from somewhere else. Even if it's a continuation of the preceding heading, all sections should be relatively "self-contained" for quick reference. Furthermore, the example table provides an example for every possible godan verb, which makes the table seem like a long, overwhelming list.
Done. JKVeganAbroad (talk) 08:53, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
  • "Usage"
This section explains an alternative grammatical purpose that the specific conjugation allows for. This is very useful, and if other grammatical patterns depend on specific verb conjugations, they too should be acknowledged in their respective conjugation subheadings. However, this heading should be re-titled "Grammatical compatibility".
Done. Reorganised every section to contain "Grammatical compatibility" information in such a subheading. JKVeganAbroad (talk) 17:53, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
  • "Negative"
The introduction is extraordinarily brief. Except the information is incorrect due to missing information. This needs correcting.
Done. JKVeganAbroad (talk) 08:53, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
  • "i form" § Usage
This subsection is too comprehensive with an unsightly bullet-list. This doesn't seem like an appropriate way to deliver the information. Probably most of the information can be omitted unless it has direct relevance to verb conjugation.
Done. JKVeganAbroad (talk) 08:53, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
  • "Potential § Usage"
Most of this section should belong in the "Potential" heading's main introduction, before the example table.
Done. Moved relevant information. JKVeganAbroad (talk) 17:53, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
  • "Causative passive"
This "form" is really a conjugation of a conjugation, with no unique conjugation patterns. So it should be a subheading of the "Causative" section, rather than a main heading on its own.
Done. Merged into a subsection of relevant section. Causative § Causative passive. JKVeganAbroad (talk) 17:53, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

As for these problems, they aren't isolated to the headings I've exposed. The principles behind the suggested improvements apply to each and every other heading in this article.

General principles moving forward

In general, the article needs to be copy-edited with brevity as the goal. Each section should:

  1. begin with a simple explanation of the conjugation grammar target; Done. JKVeganAbroad (talk) 08:53, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
  2. provide an example with a translation on a new line; Done. JKVeganAbroad (talk) 08:53, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
  3. explain the conjugation pattern (if necessary, since the table might be self-explanatory); Done. JKVeganAbroad (talk) 08:53, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
  4. be followed by a conjugation table; Done. JKVeganAbroad (talk) 08:53, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
  5. have additional notes on special exception cases below the table (if necessary, and certainly not a comprehensive list of exceptions, only noteworthy cases) Done. JKVeganAbroad (talk) 08:53, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
  6. have a subsection named "Grammatical compatibility" for new grammatical particles/functions that are 'become available' with certain conjugations (if necessary, since not all conjugations have features like this) Done. JKVeganAbroad (talk) 08:53, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
  7. have a subsection named "Advanced usage" for notable use cases beyond the scope of the main heading's introduction (if necessary) Done. JKVeganAbroad (talk) 08:53, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

Furthermore, the conjugation tables themselves:

Change of mind. This seems a little overzealous, and would complicate an already enormous article. JKVeganAbroad (talk) 17:53, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

We need an additional heading/section dedicated for 〜です (-desu), since it is a special case that is compatible with only a small subset of conjugations, and has no specific pattern of conjugation.

Done. § Copula: da and desu — JKVeganAbroad (talk) 18:20, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

As for the "Table key", we should remove it entirely, and amend the article accordingly to omit all of the terms. We only need 3 terms: godan verbs, ichidan verbs, irregular verbs. Nothing else is relevant. We don't need adjectives. Regarding alternative terminology, such as that from Japanese education, perhaps we can copy the table from the Japanese godan and ichidan verbs § Terminology page verbatim, so that people who are searching this page for specific terms can find them quickly, and then notice which consistent terminology is used in this article.

Done. Removed section. JKVeganAbroad (talk) 17:53, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

Shall we get started?

I have a request: this is a "Start-Class" article. There's no need to edit this page in a sandbox, please just edit and improve it directly. It's been rated to have HIGH importance, but it's been rated low in quality for 16 years now.

The time is now.

I'll finish this… report… with a reminder of Wikipedia's principle: Be bold.

I've documented a plan on how to get this "Start-Class" rated article to becoming a "B-Class" article. Use my recommendations, don't come to this void of a talk-page to ask permission: Be bold. Asking a void for permission will mean nobody will answer or grant that permission. People come to this talk page to complain, not to grant permissions.

Be bold.

JKVeganAbroad (talk) 12:33, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

Overhaul Progress 2021-May

Latest comment: 3 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

The project of overhauling revamping this Japanese verb conjugation page is monolithic. The good news is, much of the structural foundation has been rebuilt. Soon, each section will look as consistent as the ones surrounding it.

Example Sentences

One of the things I've been very proud of is the simplicity of the example sentences. Here's the one from the § Passive section:

Example sentences
English Japanese Nuance
This TV was made by Toshiba. このテレビは東芝によって作られた (kono terebi wa Toshiba ni yotte tsukurareta) neutrality
My beer was drunk by a friend. 私は友達にビールを飲まれた (watashi wa tomodachi ni biiru o nomareta) regrettable action
Where are you going? どちらへ行かれますか (dochira e ikaremasu ka) respectful language

I like how this is compact, with the bare essentials to convey the conjugation's purpose. Even though the Japanese sentence can be reinterpreted in different ways based on context, I don't believe it's in Wikipedia's interest to provide a comprehensive list of possible translations for every example sentence. Just 1 acceptable translation is required, and that's what I've done here.

Conjugation Tables

I'm also really proud of the new conjugation tables I've made. Here's another example, this time from the § Conditional section:

Infinitive Pattern Conditional form
Ichidan verbs Change る to れ then add ば
見る (miru, see) 見る → れ ＋ ば 見れば (mireba, if to see)
始める (hajimeru, begin) 始める → れ ＋ ば 始めれば (hajimereba, if to begin)
Godan verbs Shift the 〜〇 kana to the え row, then add ば
作る (tsukuru, make) 作る → れ ＋ ば 作れば (tsukureba, if to make)
言う (iu, say) 言う → え ＋ ば 言えば (ieba, if to say)
持つ (motsu, carry) 持つ → て ＋ ば 持てば (moteba, if to carry)
探す (sagasu, look for) 探す → せ ＋ ば 探せば (sagaseba, if to look for)
Irregular verbs
来る (kuru, come) 来る → れ ＋ ば 来れば (kureba, if to come)
する (suru, do) する → れ ＋ ば すれば (sureba, if to do)
Special conjugations
〜ない (-nai, not) 〜ない ＋ ければ 〜なければ (-nakereba, if not) [i]
[i] Colloquially the 〜なければ (-nakereba) form is contracted to 〜なきゃ (-nakya) or 〜なくちゃ (-nakucha), which comes from 〜なくては (-nakutewa).

So, in this example, you can see we have only 9+1=10 verbs. These verbs were specifically chosen for the purpose of this article by:

  1. Not having any irregular conjugations under any category (I'm looking at YOU, past-tense 行く!)
    Instead, irregular conjugations will be noted where necessary in the final rows of the table.
  2. Being among the top 30 most frequently used verbs on Japanese Wikipedia, for practical relevance.
  3. Having the bare minimum number of verb types for a human to deduce the general conjugation pattern, without an overload of information:
  • 2 ichidan verbs: an 〜いる and an 〜える
  • 4 godan verbs: a 〜る (to exhibit the difference between ichidan conjugations), an 〜う (to exhibit the 〜わ conjugation exception), a 〜す (to exhibit the 〜し phonological conjugation anomaly) and a 〜つ (to exhibit the た・ち・て・と phonological conjugation anomalies).
  • 2/3 irregular verbs: 来る, する and 〜ます, since none of these verbs follow deducible patterns and require rote-memorisation. It's worth noting that 〜ます doesn't appear in every conjugation category.

Having a limited number of verb examples gives the opportunity to spotlight special exceptions when necessary. In the above table, our attention is drawn to the final row, since ある is an exception to the usual godan rules of negative conjugation. Continuing to spotlight exceptions in every category will keep this article relevant whilst not complicating the body text of subsections to explain these anomalies.

Granted, there's not a row in the conjugation table for every godan verb. Godan verbs conjugate the same way, so we don't need comprehensive and crowded tables… to do so would undermine the efficiency of having consistent godan conjugation rules in the first place. However, the て form and past tense are obviously more involved with regards to godan conjugations… so those sections alone will have more comprehensive tables.

Ordering of Subsections

I've reordered the subsections to be methodical; one conjugation section relates to the next somehow. It builds upon previous sections. I've also renamed some headings to be simpler and less intimidating, and merged some sections where appropriate.

How do we continue from here?

We need to continue making every section of the article uniform, and simple. Probably I will finish that job.

Next, some sections will need clearer, briefer introductions. The explanations throughout the article need to be simpler. Extraneous information needs to be redacted. Finally, seek out references to missing citations.

As for my goals, I'm trying to complete this job within the next 18 days, but hopefully sooner. I hope you can help!

JKVeganAbroad (talk) 19:05, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

To-do

Latest comment: 3 years ago9 comments1 person in discussion
  • Making every section of the article uniform: Done.
    • Rewrite concise introductions for each conjugation's purpose. Done.
    • Provide the simplest, natural, example sentences in a table format. Done.
    • Rebuild standardised conjugation tables using the same verbs across sections. Done.
  • Increase the signal-to-noise ratio: Done.
    • Removing excessive information. Done.
    • Linking to relevant articles in lieu of summarising. Done.
    • Use paragraphs or bullet points appropriately, not excessively. Done.

Updates:

Overhaul Completed

Latest comment: 3 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

I've finished overhauling this article. In summary, the actions taken were:

  • Implement a uniform reading structure for each section;
  • Concise introductions for each conjugation form;
  • Included the Japanese terminology, with links to the Japanese Wikipedia article, within the introduction of each conjugation;
  • Created interlanguage wikilinks on Japanese Wikipedia that link to the appropriate sections in this article where appropriate;
  • Uniform conjugation tables;
  • Removed excessive and irrelevant content;
  • Created simple example sentences in a uniform table layout for every section;
  • Used the {{nihongo krt|Translation|Kanji|Romaji}} template on all Japanese text for accessible HTML rendering (i.e. "Japanese-language text" and "Hepburn romanization") (this added many bytes to the page size, oh well);
  • Reordered sections appropriately;
  • Copy-edited article to use consistent terminology everywhere;
  • Added citations.

Afterwards, I removed the "Multiple issues" banner, which contained the problems "Confusing" and "Expert needed". These problems have now been resolved.

Needless to say, it's been a busy month. I believe this article can finally rise above being a "Start Class" article now!

Kind regards,

JKVeganAbroad (talk) 09:17, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

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