Talk:Japanese mission school fire

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by RoySmith (talk) 22:16, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

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• ... that 10 children were killed in a racially motivated school arson in Sacramento, California, in 1923? Source: "FIRE FIEND UNMASKED: Lives and Homes Sacrificed; Confession Uncovers Arson Mystery Reaching From Seattle to Mexico; Hatred of Japanese Incites Army Deserter to Burn Church Mission FIRE MURDERS ARE ADMITTED". Los Angeles Times. 17 August 1923. p. I1. ProQuest 161579022.
  • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Squatting in Kenya

Created by Jengod (talk). Self-nominated at 05:24, 27 November 2022 (UTC).

• @Jengod: Very sad article. I gave it a copy edit and expanded the lead quite a bit from the one sentence that was there previously. I have tagged citation 12 as needing expansion (it only links to the homepage of newspaperarchive.com and does not mention the name of the newspaper). The article is otherwise neutral and very well-researched, new enough and long enough for DYK. ALT0 is eye-catching enough, but I feel like a hook mentioning the anti-Japanese animus of the perpetrator, plus his confessions to other arsons, would make for a better hook. DigitalIceAge (talk) 05:07, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

I think I fixed the wonky refs. Thanks for the great edit and the info box. Much appreciated.

Some possible hook variations:

ALT1 ... that the serial arsonist who started the fatal Nihon Sho Gakko fire confessed to starting at least 25 other California fires in the early 1920s?

ALT2 ... that the serial arsonist who started the fatal Nihon Sho Gakko fire in 1923 was motivated by anti-Japanese sentiment?

ALT3 ... that a serial arsonist started the fatal Nihon Sho Gakko fire and a dozen other fires at Japanese homes and properties in California in the early 1920s?

ALT4 ... that anti-Japanese sentiment was arsonist Fortunato Padilla's motive for starting the fatal Nihon Sho Gakko fire in 1923?

jengod (talk) 06:22, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

Approve ALT1 as the most interesting and concise of the bunch. I changed ALT1 a bit—from "30 other California fires" to "at least 25 other..."—to reflect the wording of the body of the article. Good work! DigitalIceAge (talk) 07:19, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

Rename to Nihon Shōgakkō fire instead?

@Jengod @RoySmith Please can you fix the name of this article before it goes on the main page for DYK? The romanization "Nihon Sho Gakko" looks pretty bad. See Elementary schools in Japan and try googling for "Nihon Shogakko" vs. "Nihon Sho Gakko". Cielquiparle (talk) 22:27, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

Although the long ō is more correct, a lot of conventional romanized words drop it (e.g. Tōkyō is usually written Tokyo), so it's less about that and more about how strange it looks to divide up the word "Sho Gakko" and capitalize it like that, when the word for elementary school is usually just written as a single word/compound "Shōgakkō" rather than divided into two. Cielquiparle (talk) 22:39, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

Thank god someone is here who knows Japanese language! I was hoping getting eyes on this article through DYK would bring additional insight. I just copied the name from the school website; I have no issues with a move. User:RoySmith User:DigitalIceAge — any objections to a move? jengod (talk) 23:05, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

@Theleekycauldron @Schwede66 @Valereee I have no objection, but pinging some folks who know more about how that will affect the DYK process. -- RoySmith (talk) 23:15, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

From a DYK standpoint, we'll be fine as long as 1. it's not on the main page when we move it and 2. someone remembers to update the credits :) theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 23:23, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

The only reason I think you wouldn't rename the article was if there was a huge body of historical content that clearly pointed to "Sho Gakko" as part of the widely recognized name of the school (which after all was early 20th century Japanese American, etc.), so it was important to keep that unique romanization. Although the Sakura Gakuen web site and the Buddhist newsletter do write it as two words (Sho Gakko), they're not even consistent on the translation, etc., and they barely write about the original school at all, suggesting they're not even that invested in that version of the name. Plus it really is just them. Whereas Densho Encyclopedia, the Japan Society of Northern California, the San Francisco Planning Department, this 2019 Taylor & Francis book, this 2016 Teachers College Press book, all have it as either "Nihon Shōgakkō" or "Nihon Shogakko", referring to the exact same school (and not counting the other Japanese schools that exist in other parts of the world). To me now the biggest choice in front of you is: Do you make "Nihon Shōgakkō fire" with the 2 long ō the primary and make the "Nihon Shogakko fire" the redirect? Or vice versa? Does it affect findability? (Personally I prefer it with the long ō as primary.) Cielquiparle (talk) 23:41, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

Thank you so much User:Cielquiparle — I think Nihon Shōgakkō fire as main and Nihon Shogakko as redirect. If something shows up in a Japanese-American Japanese-language community newspaper that says differently, that might warrant a variant, but I think that would be the only counter argument I could even imagine. jengod (talk) 23:54, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

OK I boldly moved it just because Be Bold. Cheers to all and thanks for the discussion. jengod (talk) 00:01, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

I've updated it in the prep area. -- RoySmith (talk) 00:07, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

I've updated the nomination credit. Schwede66 00:34, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

Changes look good to me! Thanks for calling it to my attention. DigitalIceAge (talk) 00:59, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

Is it known under what circumstances the murderer was released

Article says he was a prisoner in San Quentin 1950 and died in San Bernardino in 1970 but not how he got from one place to the other in the intervening two decades. MyIP19216811 (talk) 00:41, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

We don't have any good answers about that. California Institution for Men is in San Bernardino County but we don't know for sure if he was there. jengod (talk) 01:04, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 15 April 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Moved, as an uncontested technical request. Any objection, including by jengod who expressed some reservations about the proposed title but did not oppose it, made within a reasonable time frame should see the move reverted. Alternatively, a new move request could be opened proposing moving the article to a third title. (closed by non-admin page mover) BilledMammal (talk) 02:23, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

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Nihon Shōgakkō fire → Japanese mission school fire – per WP:USEENGLISH, even in article it's stated 'English-language newspapers covering the incident in 1923 usually called it the Japanese mission school fire or the Buddhist mission fire.'. The article title appears to be just the school's old Japanese name given from the website with 'fire' added to it - there is no evidence of 'Nihon Shōgakkō fire' that doesn't appear to be WP:CIRCULAR, I also couldn't find any evidence of the presumable Japanese translation of the title. Traumnovelle (talk) 00:32, 15 April 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. Natg 19 (talk) 05:07, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm not attached to the title. The sad fact was that the event wasn't covered very much at all in English language sources at all. "Japanese mission school fire" seemed so...external and so general. Like, "fire at brown building on corner." Or more specifically "fire in part of town we don't like to visit because it's foreign and threatening to us". The title was an attempt to be respectful. The school must have had a name used by the community! Would love to access coverage of Rafu Shimpo or something and see what it was called in Japanese language sources of the time. 1923 O Street boarding school fire might be a generic/informative option. I really am not sure how to frame it or what's suitable within Wikipedia guidelines. Interested to hear other opinions. jengod (talk) 01:29, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Or maybe 1923 Sacramento Buddhist Church school fire? jengod (talk) 04:13, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

I worked on this article before I even had Wikipedia Library. (Crazy in retrospect!) Dipping into Newspapers.com now and the Sacto Bee calls it the Japanese Buddhist School, so I'd be very comfortable with Sacramento Japanese Buddhist School fire as a new title. jengod (talk) 14:03, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Coverage of news back then was much more localised, titles such as 'fire at bank' or 'arson on town hall' were just more standard because people from out of the area didn't read about them. Here's a similar headline/story for example: https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/CHP19221012.2.25?query=%22fire+at+town+hall%22&snippet=true Traumnovelle (talk) 09:38, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

thanks much to traumnovelle for inspiring me to expand and research. I'm not sure I have a clear answer but the article is better for it. We have articles on historic Japanese schools called:

• Kinmon Gakuen (San Francisco)
• Nihongo Gakko (Tacoma)
• Nihon Go Gakko (Seattle)

I found a map and the building properly seems to have been the YMBA Hall. Other references, from various time periods:

• 1903 - Buddhist Primary School - https://books.google.com/books?id=QXcAAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA526

• Sakura Gakuen - https://books.google.com/books?id=edjgAwAAQBAJ&pg=PT45

• "fire of 1906 destroyed both Sano's Nihon Shögakkö and the Meiji Shögakkö, but they were rebuilt in new locations and played important roles in the 1906 San Francisco School Segregation Incident" - this refers to the similar schools in San Francisco (recent source) https://books.google.com/books?id=EZcBEAAAQBAJ&pg=PA166 - page 45
• "fire destroyed the Sakura Gakuen dormitory" - https://books.google.com/books?id=gDccAQAAIAAJ
• Sakura Gakuen - 1926 - Japanese-American newspaper https://hojishinbun.hoover.org/?a=d&d=jan19261003-01.1.8&e=-------en-10--1--img-------

If anyone knows Japanese, this newspaper archive may shed some light: https://hojishinbun.hoover.org/?a=p&p=home&e=15-04-1923-31-12-1923--en-10--1--img-Sacramento+------

I think my outstanding concern is whether it's problematic to carry forward the conflation of ethnicity and religion (although that is an important theme in scholarship on the assimilation of Japanese Americans!). Anyway, it was the Buddhist Mission but they were teaching Japanese languages to students of Japanese ethnicity, many of whom were American nationals (Nisei). FWIW, the BMNA apparently made the decision early on to refer to their places of worship churches rather than temples, and other attributes of American Protestant were also incorporation. OK I'm shutting up now. Bye!! peace. jengod (talk) 17:21, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.