Talk:Jawhar (general)

origin

I only noticed this through some bot edits that revealed this, and I don't really care, but let's explicate it... so there's a wee bit of chatter of this person being of Croatian Slavic origin:

• Islam in the Balkans: Religion and Society Between Europe and the Arab World, page 23 footnote, by H. T. Norris, Univ of South Carolina Press, 1993
• A History of Palestine, 634-1099, page 362, by Moshe Gil, Cambridge University Press, 1997
• "The earliest Croatian Princes and Kings" by Darko Žubrinić, 1992/2006
• A 1953 article by what should be a Czech author I. Hrbek in a journal Archiv Orientalni https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&tbm=bks&q=Die+Slawen+im+Dienste+der+Fatimiden

Are these sources mistaken, or are they just speculative, or? --Joy [shallot] (talk) 22:56, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

That is true, one of his names is al-Saqlabi ("the Slav"). There is a big possibility that he was Croat and there are a lot of other sources:

• Hrvatska povijest | Hrvatsko Pero Istine
• Da li je Dževher, osnivač Kaira, bio bošnjak | Islam-Iman
• Sakalibi | Hrvatska enciklopedija
• Prvi Hrvat musliman već u 10. stoljeću - Forum - Index.hr
• Džauhar Ben Abdallah | Hrvatska enciklopedija
• Famous Historical Muslims of Hellenic/Greek Origin « Ballandalus
• Croatia - historical and cultural overview
• Greek Muslims - Expand Your Mind - Revolvy
• Dictionary of African Biography

He might have some Slavic roots, especially Croatian. --BrunoMed (talk) 17:51, 18 July 2016 (UTC)

Copyright problem removed

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Al Qaid Johar

Jawhar and Johar are used interchangeably. Similar to Husayn and Husain and Hussain.

A ref: Qaidjoher Ezzuddin who's, as a matter of fact, named after 'Al Qaid Johar' or 'Al Qaid Jawhar' or 'Al Qaid Joher' or simply 'Qaidjoher'

For instance Al Qadi Nauman is also known as 'Qadi Nauman' or 'Qadi Noman'. It isn't uncommon for fatimid figures to be known by their titles, especially when it transitions to 'given names'. Like 'Abu Bakr' has, which is a title, a Kunya, and a given name, in the modern times.

Here's a ref of a book mentioning 'the Qaid Jawhar': https://books.google.com/books?id=cJuDafHpk3oC&pg=PA241&lpg=PA241

And here's a list of Huffaz of an Islamic institution based in multiple locations (Surat, Mumbai, Nairobi, Karachi, Houston) with four 'Qaid Johar' amongst them-- asserting the fact that 'Johar' is indeed an in-use (legal name) alternative spelling for Jawhar: https://www.mahadalquran.com/maq/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=371:1433&catid=44

I believe these citations are proof enough of 'Qaid Johar' or 'Al Qaid Johar' or 'Al Qaid Jawhar' being an alt name (which is also a given-name precisely because it is an alt name that has trickled its way into acceptance and identification with the general). al-Siqilli? Not so much. Notice how al-Siqilli is a suffix whilst al-Qaid is a prefix. So, they're not even the same thing. This is in reference to justification given to make the reverts: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/960568924

Now, if anyone has any counters to why 'Al Qaid Johar' isn't a valid alt name, I'm all ears. Murtaza.aliakbar (talk) 20:15, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

cc: @TheseusHeLl: and @Cplakidas: Murtaza.aliakbar (talk) 11:55, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

Hi Murtaza.aliakbar, of course 'Johar' is a possible alternative phonetic transliteration, but in Wikipedia, just as in academia, we follow scientific transliterations of Arabic (see Romanization of Arabic) which generally follow classical pronunciation. "Johar" is certainly not that. Constantine ✍ 16:28, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

@Cplakidas: Thanks. Agree. But my gripe is with vernacular usage / romanization.

For instance, Mohammed (as in Mohammed bin Salman) is now a popular romanization for محمّد and not Muhammad (as in Muhammad Ali).

Another interesting usage that comes to mind is Dawood (داؤود) and Daud (داوُد), both used interchangeably in the recent years, and to mean the same thing or person. Searching for Qaid Johar disappointingly doesn't point to this page.

Surely, there must be a wikipedia guideline/policy for this?

I must say, I agree that most (in fact all the ones I could find) English books refer to him as Jawhar and not Johar, even though, I feel Jawhar = جؤهر and Johar = جوهر

That said, I guess, I also understand the policy to strictly stick to academic and published sources than rely on original research. Murtaza.aliakbar (talk) 17:46, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

@Murtaza.aliakbar: By default, at the English WP we cannot account for vernacular usage in non-English languages/sources. If you think that "Al Qaid Johar" represents a frequently used alternative name in English-language sources, or a term that a non-English speaker might be looking for by phonetically transliterating what he/she is familiar with in their own language, then feel free to create a redirect to this page. Constantine ✍ 15:25, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

I feel Jawhar = جؤهر and Johar = جوهر No, جؤهر = Ju'ahar or Ju'uhar or Ju'har or Ja'uhar or J'uhar (using the hamzah above the waw in this case is weird); Jawhar = جَوْهَرْ (classical arabic) and Johar = جُوهَرْ (south asian pronunciation) -TheseusHeLl (talk) 18:56, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

@TheseusHeLl:Thanks. Johar isn't limited to South Asia or even South East Asia (Malaysia, Indonesia): Exhibit A, this Kuwaiti national: Ahmad Johar. That said, I understand why Johar is not warranted in the lead of the article as an alternative name.

@Cplakidas: Agreed.

Btw, I found alternative spelling Johar mentioned in the books, too. Here's one such instance: https://books.google.com/books?id=UkRXCAAAQBAJ&pg=PT771

Good enough to add it as an alternative name within the article lead? Thanks. Murtaza.aliakbar (talk) 16:47, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Hmmm, if this is the direct spelling from William of Tyre, probably not, as it would be idiomatic. It is telling that the modern source substitutes Jawhar directly after and for the rest of the passage. If the spelling occurs repeatedly in medieval (or other) sources, then it is a different thing, of course. Constantine ✍ 16:53, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

@Cplakidas and TheseusHeLl: Thanks. Even though I strongly feel Johar belongs in the article (due to vernacular usage), I feel I do not know enough to know what's encyclopaedic and what's not, yet. And so, I have complete confidence in your opinion in this regard.

Again, thanks a lot for engaging in a discussion with me. Appreciate it. Murtaza.aliakbar (talk) 22:24, 25 June 2020 (UTC)