Talk:Jean-Bédel Bokassa

194.117.133.118

Talk to me.

I'm user 172 now.

Please see your talk page. 194.117.133.118 11:05 Dec 23, 2002 (UTC)

I somehow suspect that the bit about Giscard is a bit biased. David.Monniaux 21:07, 18 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Humor?

I know humor is usually not the intended effect in the Wikipedia. I hope the humor inherent in the following juxtapostion is unintended:

With the return of democracy in 1993, Kolingba declared a general amnesty for all prisoners as one of his final acts as president. Bokassa was released on August 1. He had seventeen wives and a reported fifty children. He died of a heart attack.

--iFaqeer 18:11, Sep 21, 2004 (UTC)

You may wish to edit this entry in List of Dictators. Wizzy…☎ 21:45, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Renaming to Jean-Bedel Bokassa

Shouldn't this article be renamed to Jean-Bédel Bokassa. I mean, he wasnt really an emperor after all, and a google search for "Bokassa I of Central Africa" (omitting Wikipedia) returns 3 links. Well, I'll go ahead and rename it. --Ezeu 03:35, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, it doesn't really matter what google turns up. He was officially an Emperor, that was his official title. Past monarchs have not even ruled or reigned, yet they have thier regnal names and such for their article names. Surely Bokassa exerted more political power than, say, Napoleon II of France? I see no logical reason as to why this should not be called "Bokassa I of Central Africa". That was his name. --The Gonz 15:54, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

I have to agree, he was recognised by France Switzerland and the U.S. and ruled for three years. No question he was also a tyrant, murderer and all around dick, but that has little to do with the fact of his name and position. And who says he wasn't really an emperor anyway?, you could say as easily and with as much validity that the Current head of State of any country in the world isn't really the Head of state because you don't like him. The question is whether the person actually was head of state or not, in this case its clear Bokassa was. As I said, he was recognised by democratic Governments and even if he wasn't it wouldn't matter. The Official name of the country changed to the Central African Empire for nearlt three years, Bokassa ruled as an emperor in the traditional sense and there was a massive coronation for him. The fact that he was an evil emeror and a tyrant and ruled for a relatively short period of time changes nothing about the fact he was emperor and the Central African Republic Was an Empire. A good example would be James II of England, his reign was just as short as Bokassa's and he was banished just as effectively, but nobody says he wasn't really King of England during those three years. Just because the Emperor Bokassa was unlikable and a horrible despot changes nothing about whether he was really emperor, you can't rule autocratically for almost three years, be recognised by foreign governments and be crowned Emperor in a lavish coronation ceremony and not really be Emeror because you were a bad person. Its about what was, rather than how things ought to have been. Colin 8 21:21, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

The Almanach de Bruxelles (a geneology of non eurpoean royal and imperial houses) refers to Jean-Bedel Bokassa as His Imperial Majesty, Bokassa I, Emperor of Central Africa, his male descendents are princes and are styled as such. If Napoleon Bonaparte is listed as Napoleon I of France then to be accurate and unbiased, Jean-Bedel Bokassa should be Bokassa I of Central Africa, theres enough historical revisionism going around in the world without Wikipedia joining in.

It's perfectly reasonable to go with de facto status. It's also true that the attitude of Westerners to Bokassa and other African dictators is marked as much by racism as genuine concern about their misdeeds: hence a Black man cannot possibly be a "proper" emperor, unlike Napoleon II, for example. However, in this case the fact is that Bokassa only claimed to be emperor for three years and was president for about 11. Hence, I'm sure the decision to rename the page was the right one.Sjwells53 (talk) 09:37, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

• I support renaming this article to Bokassa I of the Central African Empire. Does anyone know what the procedures for renaming an article are? Jamhaw (talk) 03:00, 20 September 2009 (UTC)jamhaw
• Apparently this article should be renamed in order to conform to Wiki policy anyway.Please see the guidelines on naming of ex-monarchs here. [1]

Specifically, Rule #7 which states: Former or deposed monarchs should be referred to by their previous monarchical title with the exception of those who are still alive and are most commonly referred to by a non-monarchial title; all former or deposed monarchs should revert to their previous monarchical title upon death; for example, Constantine II of Greece not ex-King Constantine II or Constantine Gluckberg, Edward VIII of the United Kingdom not the Prince Edward, Duke of Windsor, so since he is dead it should be his monarchial title.Jamhaw (talk) 03:07, 20 September 2009 (UTC)jamhaw

Africa doesn't have Emperors or Kings. Africa has tribal chieftains. His proper title is 'Chief Bokassa'.

-)

99.88.41.188 (talk) 04:14, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Racism? I have no doubt that Haile Selassie was Emperor of Ethiopia, but Bokassa was a bad joke. Radio Sharon (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 03:07, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

Links

You should closely examine the links in this here article. The first linked Website is dedicated to a statesman who served his country with selfless devotion for his service to a nation that desperately needed a firm leadership in an era of widespread governmental corruption who alas was rejected by the people he so loved. I have a feeling that this is NOT was was meant by NPOV. --Janneman 01:47, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Links, as they are external, do not need to fulfill NPoV. Hence links from a politician's article can go to there own website.--Couter-revolutionary 18:41, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Cannibalism

Is there any information about why such rumors were around about him and why a was he cleared of such charges? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.40.10.181 (talk • contribs) , at 23:55, 22 April 2007

There was a picture in TIME magazine of a throne where the legs of it were said to have been made from the femurs of former opponents, I seem to recall, and implications in the associated article that there were rumours that he had eaten some of the persons who bones were utilized in making the thrones, but it seems more reasonable to assume that if he were acquitted of this charge in a trial by a government which had no interest in not proving him to have been guilty of all charges, it seems reasonable to assume that the proof for these charges was somewhere between weak and nonexistent. Perhaps the court felt the pressure of conducting the trial to high standards of proof since it was a high-profile event for what is typically a quite obscure country in the West even by the low standards interest African affairs affords. 2600:1004:B118:340:2D51:6DD8:A297:CF94 (talk) 23:42, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Bobangi, Moyen-Congo

Bokassa was born in Bobangi, a village in Moyen-Congo, in the present Central African Republic (then a French colony called French Equatorial Africa).

Where is this exactly? The only Bobangi Wikipedia knows is in the present DRC (0° 6.67’ S latitude, 17° 43.26 E longitude, along the banks of the Ubangi River), not in the CAR, and surely Moyen-Congo was in the present ROC (former French Congo). Flapdragon 19:45, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Imperial stamp.jpg

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BetacommandBot (talk) 19:25, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Jean Bédel Bokassa.jpg

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Dates

The "Foreign Support" section's dates are screwed up. It says that "In early December 1979, the French council officially stopped all support to Bokassa", when he was overthrown in September 1979; and that French support peaked at the time of his coronation, then declined over contacts with Qadhafi, which Bokassa broke off because being a Muslim contradicted his coronation plans. What's the story here? KarlM (talk) 20:57, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Place of Birth

According to the french wikipedia Bokassa was born in a province named Lobaye. Shouldn't that information be added to the current text? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.138.78.32 (talk) 20:19, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

He was born in Bobangui, which is a village in the Lobaye prefecture. The article now states this. Nishkid64 _{(Make articles, not love)} 21:01, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

timing doesn't work on this

The timing on "On 10 October 1979, the Canard Enchaîné satiric newspaper reported - in what soon became a major political scandal known as the Diamonds Affair—that President Bokassa had offered the then Minister of Finance Valéry Giscard d'Estaing two diamonds in 1973.[38][39] The Franco-Central African relationship drastically changed when France's Renseignements Généraux intelligence service learned of Bokassa's willingness to become a partner of Qadhafi of Libya. In early December 1979, the French council officially stopped all support to Bokassa." is wrong, he was already overthrown by three months with French aid. Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 07:06, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

I suspect the key word is "officially". I have no other real source of info, but it would not surprise me if France changed its official line at the first suitable opportunity after changing the facts on the ground. Countries seldom advertise that they are going to carry out a coup in an allied nation in advance.Sjwells53 (talk) 09:43, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Early years of regime

This section uses phrase "Despite the positive changes in the country..." yet there are no clearly positive descriptions of activities or policies in this period following the coup. Changes described previous to this statement appear to fall only in categories of restrictive and prohibitive laws, and imposing European culture on the society. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.85.20.234 (talk) 16:00, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

A question on the article title

Why is the article not named Bokassa I of the Central African Empire? Is that not the style to be used as seen in Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom?

I think it was because it was an invented crown. 154.5.223.191 (talk) 04:12, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

• One could say the same of Napoleon but you will note his article is named Napoleon I. The present title really should be changed in my opinion. Jamhaw (talk) 03:31, 26 September 2010 (UTC)jamhaw
• If we were to rename the article what should it be? Most rulers are named like say William III of England but I noticed that others such as Napoleon III do not have of France behind their name so which would be standard?
• according to the WP:Manual of Style the current tiltle is common. User:Smith Jones 17:18, 11 December 2010 (UTC)
• I am not certain that I understand you, according to my brief check of Google it seems that Bokassa I is far, far, far more popular that the current Wikipedia title and most other articles of monarchs are based around their regal names (Edward VIII had a far shorter reign but he is still counted as a monarch), and it is not like Bokassa's status as Emperor was more fake than that of any number of other heads of state just because they were unpleasant people. Threadnecromancer (talk) 02:44, 18 December 2012 (UTC)Threadnecromancer

In accordance with MoS, the title should be changed, especially considering he is popularly known simply as Bokassa. --Counter-revolutionary (talk) 13:25, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

Army

• What "2nd Bataillon de Marche" is meant ? By the way - there were no Free French Forces before June/July 1940 --129.187.244.28 (talk) 14:01, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

C-160 Transall Image

The caption of the airplane image is clearly incorrect. The image shows a German Air Force plane, not a French. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.250.202.79 (talk) 13:27, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No move. The consensus is that the current name is the common one and that the naming conventions don't trump that in this case. Cúchullain ^t/c 20:08, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

---

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Jean-Bédel Bokassa → Bokassa I of the Central African Empire – Per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (royalty and nobility)) Counter-revolutionary (talk) 12:50, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

• Comment: Except that he was neither royal nor very noble! Skinsmoke (talk) 19:24, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Comment - But that is PoV; the CAE was diplomatically recognised (including by the USA and France). As with Napoleon and King Zog, all monarchies begin somewhere. --Counter-revolutionary (talk) 20:00, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Yes, but this one ended exactly where it began. It went nowhere. Skinsmoke (talk) 13:20, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. We have tended not to use the formal monarchical name for short-lived one dynasty monarchs e.g. Boris Godunov, two of Napoleon's brothers, Marshal Murat, John Balliol, Edward Balliol and Edward Bruce. PatGallacher (talk) 00:48, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

• • We have Jérôme Bonaparte not Jerome of Westphalia, Joseph Bonaparte not Joseph of Spain, Joachim Murat not Joachim of Naples, False Dmitriy I not Dmitriy II of Russia, Boris Godunov not Boris I of Russia, John Balliol not John of Scotland, Edward Balliol not Edward of Scotland, and Edward Bruce not Edward of Ireland. PatGallacher (talk) 14:40, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose Strikes me a little like the self-bestowed titles of Idi Amin. At the very least, the disambiguator "of the Central African Empire" is unnecessary. There aren't any other Bokassa I's. DrKay (talk) 20:57, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Comment - that is PoV; the CAE was recognised internationally. --Counter-revolutionary (talk) 20:47, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

Nigeria was recognised internationally. I don't see the difference. DrKay (talk) 20:56, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose as per reasons explained by PatGallacher above. Mezigue (talk) 13:23, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose: this nasty little tyrant only called himself "emperor" for three years of the 75 that, regrettably, he lived. Brocach (talk) 20:12, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
• Comment - Most of the opposition statements are blatantly PoV. Our opinion of the man is irrelevant, the fact is he was an emperor and internationally recognised as such. The question to be answered is why WP naming regulations on monarchs should not be applied; only one user has addressed this so far.--Counter-revolutionary (talk) 13:48, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

There is one statement from Pat on common name and consistency, which another user has endorsed, and one comment from me on unnecessary disambiguation; conciseness is one of the five key points of WP:AT. The naming conventions apply to European and Muslim monarchs who share the same name stock. It does not apply to monarchies where the names are rare and distinct. The current name is no more PoV than your suggested target. If his real name is the PoV of his opponents, then his title is the PoV of his supporters. The neutrality argument fails when the suggested target is as or more bias than the current article title. DrKay (talk) 15:50, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Coronation Cost as a percentage of the budget

In "Foreign support", the article says the coronation ceremony in December 1977 cost 10 million GB pounds, more than the cost of the annual budget of the CAR. But in the very next section, "Proclamation of the empire" it says the same coronation cost 20 million US dollars and was one third of the annual budget. so which is correct? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.81.93.214 (talk) 15:35, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Pronunciation

Can somebody put on his prounciation?

En-us-Jean Bedel Bokassa from C.A.R. pronunciation (Voice of America)

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.64.2.249 (talk) 21:21, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

Schoolchildren

The early part of the article indicates the old story that he personally beat some of the school children who couldn't afford/wouldn't wear his school uniforms; another part states that Amnesty International (generally regarded as a "reliable source" found only that the children died as a result of being stuffed into overcrowed cells, not directly from his actions. Since this was apparently "the last straw" in his loss of all French support and the leadup to his being overthrown, shouldn't this be completely sorted out rather than left somewhat open as it seems to be now? 2600:1004:B118:340:2D51:6DD8:A297:CF94 (talk) 23:18, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

IMO, the use or the terms "murder" and "schoolchildren" are loaded here, and should be replaced with "death" and "students", respectively. According to http://www.sangonet.com/HistoireRCA/aux-cailloux-25ans.html (in french), there has been an intifada of some sort by no toddlers but high school ("lycée") students for 3 months, before April 18's repressions, using stones, arrows and the occasional hunting fiream (Bokassa's paranoia made that regular policemen were not armed). As for their deaths, most of them occured as a result of suffocation in the crowded cells of the prison where they were interned.

If nobody objects, I might edit a few things here and there - not that I actually care about the subject (which I picked on the home page), but for accuracy's sake. Happy New Year! MVictorP (talk) 14:39, 31 December 2015 (UTC)

Titular recognition

Perhaps the U.S. government did not formally recognize Bokassa as being an emporer, but I recall seeing his country referred to as the "Central African Empire" on a document the U.S. goverment promulgated – a Peace Corps recruiting poster from when I was in college gave it as one of the places one could serve. Does anyone have such a document or access to such, or a link to a copy of it, or some reliable source proving its existence? (I understand that my memory is essentially original research and proves nothing.) When its existence is proven, does this show that at least on U.S. agency had given the Central African Empire de facto recognition, even if it was not the one which could grant it de jure? 2600:1004:B118:340:2D51:6DD8:A297:CF94 (talk) 23:35, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

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Mgboundoulou

I am not knowledgeable about this topic. This name just appears without explanation three times, then is not mentioned again. Can someone with knowledge of the topic clarify this in the article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.91.249.83 (talk) 01:50, 6 July 2017 (UTC)

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Vietnamese daughter's name

Isn't Nguyễn Thị Huệ more correct than "Nguyen Thi Hué" (the spelling that's in the article now)? 173.88.241.33 (talk) 17:20, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

Infobox royalty

Chad The Goatman: I have reverted your reversal for a couple of reasons. Firstly because {{infobox officeholder}} is more befitting for a character like Bokassa. His status as a monarch was self-proclaimed, there was no "royal family" apart from Bokassa, his spouse, and their children, and there was no "empire" to speak of. Nevertheless, his status as self-proclaimed emperor was anything but glanced over. Secondly and more importantly because your haphazard revert provides no explanation for your undoing of the copy editing and removal of content.

Finally, I also wish to discuss your revert of Operation Barracuda here. Based on your confusing assumption of bias, you have wilfully reinstated a couple of grating MOS violations: MOS:OVERLINK, MOS:SEAOFBLUE. I assume your intentions were made with good faith and I hope you'll be open to discussing your grievances here. I'll try to keep an open mind and answer any of your questions to the best of my ability. Take care! Jay D. Easy (t • c) 18:44, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

"Bias", are you really accusing me for bias, while you seem acting like one (MOS:ACCUSED) hypocritically I guess?!?

As I may understand why you think isn't too important, according in your view, but however, due of him was only officially recognised leader for the Central African nation in that time (1966-1979) and without a opposition leader for that nation to be as a partially alternative recognised leader–for nations who refused recognised Bossaka as the nation's leader anymore; along they are literally few pages seems pretty seriously on dedicated of his final and 'Emperor' years and even his 'Empire' as a historical fact by the site itself not from my "claims", regardlessly you acted as offended for some reason(?), including one of his children has also have the royaly infobox. Which was given me to reworked his infobox based his unfortunately short-live official legitimacy by other in that time period again, before the successful overthrow. While your undos are treating as unnecessary historical revisionism, just only because you don't see him that too important, despite his country and the site itself does treating that time period important in some way?

And along this some missing grammar on your paragraph, so please fix some of it too, for quit mistaking you as a probable Vandal? Chad The Goatman (talk) 23:51, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

Chad The Goatman: it is obvious that English isn't your native language. No, I am not accusing you of bias. You are the one accusing me of bias. The fact that you fail to grasp such simple statements as "based on your confusing assumption of bias" is indicative of the fact that it may be best for you to reserve judgment when it comes to grammar and copy editing. Judging by your grammar I think you may be a native French speaker? Regardless, I'll admit that I'm having difficulty understanding most of your second paragraph, which goes to illustrate my point.

Again, the fact that Bokassa was self-proclaimed "emperor" for a grant total of nearly three years is hardly glanced over and amply recognized by the current revision. You almost seem under the (mistaken) impression that using {{infobox royalty}} somehow confirms a subject's status as royalty. Furthermore, you once again demonstrate your lack of MOS familiarity by constructing an abhorrent mess of consecutive links, while also failing to address your decision to reinstate MOS violations. Jay D. Easy (t • c) 02:27, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

Eh excuse me. I'm suffer from High-functioning Autism you... and second I literally was born in Carson City, Nevada, who happens to be French-American descendant and very limited fluent French, because of my neurological disability. And judging that snark comment, I think you even bother look over my whole User page to find references of having it?!?

And I was planned to responded something more counterproductive either if my own hypocritical grammar problem make my writing worse or not, but because you insult my disability, you should given me only a half sorry. Along those links aren't from my edits in the Operation Barracuda page by going to its history page, and again if you can't read through from my bad written paragraph, because one of his son's has a royalty infobox, was the only reason why I replacing his old infobox with that one, okay! Chad The Goatman (talk) 03:37, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

I see no snark comment or insult, from Jay. I too mistook you for a non-native English speaker. Think about it: given your disability, aren't you likely to have misunderstood? DrKay (talk) 07:31, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

Chad The Goatman: I won't apologize since I didn't insult you in the first place. Of course I never looked over your userpage. Honestly, who does? I'm really not interested in users themselves. But now that I've done so and now that I know that it might affect your grammar, I'll keep it in mind. Moving forward, I also confess I haven't checked Operation Barracuda to see who's responsible for the MOS:SEAOFBLUE edits in the first place. It's of no importance here. Whether you made those initial edits or not doesn't matter. You're the one who reverted to them. That's the issue. Now, you mentioned one of my edits left a bit of broken grammar on one (or both?) of the pages. Could you please point it out to me? I'll address the issue.

Finally, the fact that one of his sons' pages uses {{infobox royalty}} is neither here nor there. I am honestly completely unbiased in all matters regarding Bokassa, the CAR, and the CAE. Like you (presumably), I'm drawn towards him because he's just such an interesting character. Being Dutch I have zero personal connection to any of these subjects. In this case, it's just that infobox royalty is one of the more difficult infoboxes to work with whereas {{infobox officeholder}} is highly accessible. It provides a wide range of labels next to being highly customizable, which—especially in this case—allows for a wider range of control. If infobox royalty were more accessible I'd use it. Sure, it may be possible to customize it through embedded templates, but at the risk of ending up with an off-looking infobox, which may alienate our novice users.

Just please know that none of my edits stem from a place of bias, but rather from a desire to optimize, polish, or streamline whatever the subject may be. Anything that may be perceived as otherwise is unintentional. Anywhats, looking forward to your reply. Take care! Jay D. Easy (t • c) 12:45, 23 July 2019 (UTC)