Talk:Jean-Vital Jammes/Archive 1

Archive 1

Texts prepared for introduction

Performances at the Grand Théâtre, Marseille 1854-1860

Ismaël first sang at Marseille's Grand-Théâtre (or Salle Bauveau) in 1854 during Provini's second management of the theatre. He continued to perform there for six seasons in the following operas:

• Gritzenko in Meyerbeer's L'etoile du nord, 30 December 1854 (appearing with his first wife Alceste Cœuriot)

I've edited this. Please do not use "Dugazon" (unnecessary detail on voice type and she is already mentioned in the main text of the article), simply specify the role, if known. What does "creating a cantineer" mean? There is no such role as in the opera. Voceditenore (talk) 11:16, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

• Poise's Bonsoir voisin, 8 January 1855

I assume it's this one? Voceditenore (talk) 14:50, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

• Clapisson's La Promise, 9 March 1855

I assume it's this one? Voceditenore (talk) 15:02, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

• Agnelli's Léonore de Médicis, 23 March 1855

I assume it's this one? Voceditenore (talk) 13:55, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

• Grisar's Le chien du jardinier, 21 October 1855

I assume it's this one? Voceditenore (talk) 15:06, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

• Boulanger's Les sabots de la marquise, 21 November 1855

I assume it's this one? Voceditenore (talk)

• Donizetti's Linda di Chamounix, 17 December 1855
• Count di Luna in Verdi's Le trouvère, 22 February 1856
• Donizetti's Marino Faliero, 14 March 1857 (with Luigi Merly)

You had "Marino Faltero". I assume you mean Marino Faliero. What is the point of "(duet with baritone Merly)" If he sang in the opera, obviously he will sing a duet at some point, unnecessary detail. Do you simply mean that Merly also appeared in that performance in another role, or that Ismaël alternated the same role with Merly in different performances? Voceditenore (talk) 13:55, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

For the duet, I mean that Merly appeared in the same performance and Faltero / Faliero, it's certainly Faliero.Jean GUERIN - Paris (talk) 16:21, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

• Charles V in Verdi's Ernani, 12 February 1858
• Auber's Marco Spada, 14 April 1858

I assume it's this one? Voceditenore (talk) 14:22, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

• Bazin's Maître Pathelin, 12 November 1858

I assume it's this one? Voceditenore (talk) 14:58, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

• Flotow's Martha, 15 December 1858

I assume it's this one. Voceditenore (talk) 13:55, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

• Sergeant Belamy in Maillart's Les dragons de Villars, 21 January 1859
• Gounod's Le médecin malgré lui, 7 March 1859
• Gevaert's Quentin Durward, 15 November 1859

I assume it's this one. Voceditenore (talk) 15:10, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

• Halévy's Jaguarita l'Indienne, 6 February 1860

Are you sure this is spelled correctly? I can find no record of an opera with this name. Voceditenore (talk) 14:17, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

I read also "jaguarlla", but not very clear ... Jean GUERIN - Paris (talk) 16:21, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Well, until we can figure out what the opera is, we'll have to leave it out. Voceditenore (talk) 16:34, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

A ha! I looked closely at the page in the Petit Provencal using a photo editor to make it clearer. It appears to be "Jaguarita" and I assume it's the one I've now linked. Voceditenore (talk) 16:54, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Wonderful ! Bravo ! Jean GUERIN - Paris (talk) 18:13, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

• Morel's Le jugement de Dieu, 7 March 1860

I assume it's this one. Voceditenore (talk) 15:16, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

• Verdi's Rigoletto, 12 May 1860 (with Mme Meillet, Armandi, Depassio)

For the others, I think you're right : I've precise opinions on French "Actes d'état-cilvil", but I'm a boeotian about opera ... ;) Jean GUERIN - Paris (talk) 16:21, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

• Comment. I have copyedited the lead for idiomatic English and encyclopedic style. However, every one of the operas needs to be formatted correctly, linked to the appropriate article. and cross-checked with the source again. The Rouen list based on Le Journal de Rouen list was full of errors and/or misreadings of the source. Note also, we do not use "create" to simply mean "perform". In English "create a role" is used only for having sung in the world premiere. I have also added some queries inside the list. This list still needs a lot of work before it can go into the article. Voceditenore (talk) 11:16, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

For "create a role", I don't know. It seems that French authors speak of "creation" on their local stage ... "Create a cantineer" is the translation of a French author : "... créa dans l'Etoile du Nord le rôle d'une des deux cantinières ...". This sentence is not in the artocle of "Le Petit Provençal" : other sources to come in "Commons" ... A detail : I have personnally no source for Alceste known as "Anaïs".Jean GUERIN - Paris (talk) 11:51, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

I know French sources use "create" that way, but it isn't used that way in English, and this is the English Wikipedia. As for "Anaïs" , see here and here. Cantinière should be used in its French form (we have an article about them). However, the lead female role in L'etoile du nord, Catherine, was a cantinière, as were two minor roles, Ekimona and Nathalie. But if we don't know which one, why put it in? It's unnecessary (and unclear) detail for very little return. It might be appropriate for a detailed book about your family but not for an encyclopedia article, in my view. Voceditenore (talk) 13:16, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

OK for the notion of "creation" and for the "cantinière". On the contrary, your sources fo "Anaïs" are legal sources. They must use stricly the état-civil names. So "Anaïs Hortense" in place of "Alceste Anastasie Hortense" is, legally, a mistake. The correct sentence should have been "Alceste Anastasie Hortense COEURIOT, qui joue sous le pseudonyme d'Anaïs COEURIOT". Perhaps it is a "lapsus scriptae", or perhaps Alceste preferred to be known as "Anaïs" : I don't know ... What I want to say is that this French legal source is "not as good as" an "Acte d'Etat-Civil" - such as a marriage certificate. But it should be interesting to have a newspaper or a theater program with "Anaïs Coeuriot".78.113.177.95 (talk) 14:18, 23 February 2012 (UTC)Jean GUERIN - Paris (talk) 14:19, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

I understand that, and I'm not denying that it wasn't her full birth name, but it is customary to use here the name by which she performed and by which she was known as an adult regardless of what it says on her birth certificate. The article gives her full birth name in parentheses when it talks about her. That's sufficient. Voceditenore (talk) 14:30, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

So do I ... I said that the legal papers do not allow us to conclude that "Anaïs" was his stage name. It is perhaps only a mistake of the clerk ... In France, her "common name" is "Alceste COEURIOT", except if you have private papers who tell "Anaïs COEURIOT". For instance I have private papers signed "Marie Garcin", whose common name is normally "Rose Garcin" and legal name "Rose Françoise Marie Garcin". So, I shall try to find a newspaper speaking of Alceste. I'm interested : I have nothing about her, which is understandable.Jean GUERIN - Paris (talk) 14:46, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

OK, I've tweaked the article's text to at least be consistent across parapraphs. At her first mention, I put Alceste Anastasie Hortense Cœuriot (also known by the first name "Anaïs"). After their marriage in 1852, she appeared under the last name "Ismaël". I then refer to her as Alceste after that. I don't think we can assume one way or another that the wording of the court ruling was lapsus scriptae at this point. Voceditenore (talk) 16:19, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Perfect for me ! :) Jean GUERIN - Paris (talk) 16:25, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Marie Garcin

I have a photograph of Marie Garcin correctly sourced. Everybosy in his family and to the scene as to the city knew "Rose Françoise Marie Garcin" as "Marie".
Jean GUERIN - Paris (talk) 22:06, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

The relationship between Jean-Vital and Marie began in 1876 approximately. Jean-Vital had been living separate from Alceste Couriot since at least 1855 (their married on 24 january 1852 at "La guillotière", today a neighborhood of Lyon). But French law authorized divorce only in June 1884. This is why Jean-Vital divorced only on 30 march 1885 and remarried immediately with Marie Garcin. On 30 march 1885, Jean-Vital not even knew where Alceste inhabited ... I have all papers ,ecessary to prove these points.

Jean GUERIN - Paris (talk) 23:34, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

After his marriage with Jean-Vital, Marie was knowm at stage as "Mme Ismaël-Garcin" (see articles of newspapers in Commons) and at the city, she was "Mme Ismaël"
Jean GUERIN - Paris (talk) 18:33, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Hi Voce,
Never heard about "Dinorah" ! Bravo ! I will soon produce more documents about Marie, so, we will began the article "Marie Ismaël-Garcin" !  :)
Sincerely yours,
Jean GUERIN - Paris (talk) 16:18, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Etienne Destrange (1893) gives interesting details about Marie :

• Marie 'première chanteuse légère" retires on April 1889, after bad performance in Le roi d'Ys. This retirement was final, in accordance with familial tradition (p. 426).
• On page 451, we have an indication about the earnings of Marie : 3 000 to 4 000 gold francs per month.

Jean GUERIN - Paris (talk) 17:35, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Musical career of Marie Garcin, then Marie Ismaël-Garcin, as "chanteuse légère"

Extended content

His career is currently very badly known : Birth in 1859 - First, his father Louis Garcin was a poor farm hand and Rose Girard his mother a mender of straw chairs, two of them of unknown father. Then, Louis became, as pedicure in the center of Marseille, a petty bourgeois. So, Marie had a good education, with preceptors at home and her parents could send her to Paris in order to learn music. Source to come Jean GUERIN - Paris (talk) 10:30, 26 February 2012 (UTC) 1876 or 1877 - Arrives in Paris and encounters Jean-Vital as her professor (at the Conservatory ?) (essentially familial memory) - Jean-Vital is married, but "séparé de corps" 1877-1880 - Bordeaux ??? Lille / Angers / Alger ??? Gand ? 1880-1881 - Beginnings in Marseille (attested by archives of "Grand Theatre") 1881-1882 - Season in Theater of Geneve 1882-1885 ??? (Perhaps Geneve ?) 1885 - 18 April - Marriage (not possible before, because divorce became legal in 1884 in France) - Becomes Marie Ismaël-Garcin 1885-1886 - Toulouse (Faust affair with Alceste) 1886-1887 - Toulouse ? or Marseille ? 1887-1888 - Marseille - Attested by "Marseille Artiste" 1888-1889 - Nantes - Théâtre Graslin - Final Retirement in April 1889 (Is seems to be a sudden enough problem of voice). Jean GUERIN - Paris (talk) 00:04, 25 February 2012 (UTC) Jean GUERIN - Paris (talk) 00:15, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Corrections and additions

Jean-Vital JAMMES is born in "Le Passage d'Agen". His father was a poor tailor, but he was not Jewish. I'm the owner of Jean Vital's grave, and I can say that he is buried under a christian cross. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jean GUERIN 2 (talk • contribs) 12:34, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

The reference Vapereau (1870) p. 943 says that his parents were "Israélites". This may be right or wrong, as this is quite an old reference book. That doesn't mean that he may not have later become a Christian. There is another reference which states that his father was a tailor (Fétis and Pougin (1878) pp. 13-14). I have added that to the article. However I have reverted the changes you made to the way his name is presented, as this is not appropriate per Wikipedia's Manual of Style. – Voceditenore (talk) 13:22, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Hi, I don't know VEPEREAU - maybe interesting ... My references are birth, wedding end death certificates of my ancestor Jean-Vital JAMMES, known also as "ISMAËL", his stage name. His father is described as a tailor on the birth certificate of Jean-Vital. And he is dead Roman Catholic Christian. Nothing tells me that he was born "Israelite" ... I repeat : Jean-Vital JAMMES - Stage name : ISMAËL I don't understand how Wikipedia MOS manages with it ? Kind regards, Jean GUERIN 2 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jean GUERIN 2 (talk • contribs) 20:38, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Ther is no "Anaïs COEURIOT - Soprano". I have his wedding certificate with "Alceste Anastasie Hortense COEURIOT", and she was a "Dugazon", which is a type of female voice. Kind regards, Jean GUERIN 2 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jean GUERIN 2 (talk • contribs) 20:44, 16 February 2012 (UTC) Sorry for unsigned Jean GUERIN 2 (talk) 20:50, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Anaïs Coeuriot was her stage name. She sang soprano roles. "Dugazon" is a French term for a type of soprano with a dark mezzo-soprano timbre to her voice or a light, high mezzo-soprano and is named after the singer Louise-Rosalie Lefebvre (Madame Dugazon). "Vapereau" refers to the French lexicographer, Louis Gustave Vapereau. I changed the article to say that he was a the son of a tailor. I put Vapereau's assertion that Ismaël's parents were Jewish in a footnote. My issue about the Manual of Style is that we don't capitalise surnames on Wikipedia, e.g. Jammes not JAMMES and we don't use the French expression "dit". We also state in the lead if the went by a stage name, etc. We also try to list the article under the name most commonly used in English reference books, although this can be tricky, as they aften vary considerably. I think however, that there is a good case for moving this article to Jean-Vital Jammes (with appropriate mention in the article of alternative names), and am going to do so. Voceditenore (talk) 07:47, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm curious why you decided to omit Ismaël from his birth name, when the source cited in the footnote gives it as Jean-Vital-Ismael Jammes. Is there another source that supports this, besides User:Jean GUERIN 2? [Update: I found a couple which potentially could be cited. [1], [2].] --Robert.Allen (talk) 08:24, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Do we have a verifiable source for Le Passage d'Agen as his place of birth? --Robert.Allen (talk) 09:27, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Hi,

I "decide" or "omit" nothing, and my "verifiable sources" are birth certificate of Jean-Vital JAMMES, Jammes if Wikipedia wants, I don't care, son of Antoine Jammes, "tailleur d'habits" and his wife Marguerite Andrieu, "domestique", married on 12 feb 1824, Le Passage. I OWN a copies of these certificates. I equally own many papers and objects from Jean-Vital and Marie GARCIN. I own true official sources about them, because I'm their only heir. I can prove it - but not on a Wikipedia public page. And I don't want to read wrong things about them in Wikipedia.

Sincerely yours,

Jean GUERIN 2 (talk) 10:25, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm not suggesting that this information should be deleted (although some editors might advocate it), nor am I questioning your veracity. However, a verifiable source (in addition to the primary source documents which you own, which I don't think we can cite), would be a good thing to include, if such exists. Your input is appreciated, but you should recognize that these Wikipedia guidelines on sources have been in place for some time for apparently good reasons. --Robert.Allen (talk) 12:01, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

How and where can I introduce pictures of official documents in Wikipedia ?

Jean GUERIN 2 (talk) 12:52, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

I introduced the picture of his birth certificate, from Archives Départementales du Lot et Garonne 47.

Jean GUERIN 2 (talk) 13:45, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Sorry Jean GUERIN 2, but these kinds of edits are not helpful. I added a link to the birth certificate in a footnote. Your addition of the image and the wording made a mess of the article's format and the lead paragraph. More importantly, Wikipedia does not use primary sources like this as references. We are required to use published sources from reference works. The image is also very unclear. It cannot be used as a reference and should not appear directly in the article. Voceditenore (talk) 14:00, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Hum ! The French "Etat-Civil" is public - and published - information, I think, and the only "official" one. I don't understand why books published by authors who never saw the birth certificate of Jean-Vital are considered as "better" than an official document ?

I recognize that my photograph is quite bad, but I live in Paris and cannot go and fetch a good picture in Agen to morrow morning ...

I agree with you for direct appearance and references. But for instance, you introduce in the article a picture of Jean-Vital which comes from the "Trombinoscope", a very bad publication indeed (I own an exemplary of it).

I have several good pictures and portraits in the oil of Jean-Vital, that I can give to Wikimedia commons.

Jean GUERIN 2 (talk) 14:27, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

A document being available to the public, does not mean it is published in the sense used by Wikipedia, and it's still a primary source. For more about the primary sources issue, see WP:Primary sources and WP:Verifiability. For better or worse, these are core Wikipedia policies and we have to work within them. It would be great to have a portrait of Jammes for the article. But is essential that more than 70 years have passed since the artist's (or photographer's) death. The Trombinoscope image is also useful, as documenting a particular aspect of his fame, and should remain the article lower down and smaller, if we eventually get a good quality portrait. Voceditenore (talk) 14:40, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

I understandf that we are in the following case :

"A primary source may only be used on Wikipedia to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that any educated person, with access to the source but without specialist knowledge, will be able to verify are supported by the source."

Certificates (birth, wedding, death) of French Etat-Civil during the XIXth century are very easy to read and understand by everybody without any interpretation.

And Frech "Actes d'Etat-Civil" are the only documents legally true in France.
Jean GUERIN 2 (talk) 16:19, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Is this suitable ? I don't know the photographer ... File:Jean-Vital Jammes.jpg – 78.113.177.95 (talk) 16:03, 17 February 2012 (UTC)Jean GUERIN 2 (talk) 16:09, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

The photograph itself is very suitable, but unless you fix the licensing information, it will probably be deleted from Commons. You listed it as "own work". That only applies if you actually took the photograph yourself. If you simply scanned it, that does not make you the author. I can fix that for you, but has the photograph ever been published in a book or on the web before? Voceditenore (talk) 16:24, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

I was not born in 1860 ! This has been published in the XIXth century, but I must find the publication in my "paper" archives ...

About publication on the Web, I don't know !

Jean GUERIN 2 (talk) 16:30, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

It has been published in "Paris Théâtre" N° 19 du 25 sept au 1er oct 1873. Photographer : "Alex. QUINET, photographe, 42 rue Cadet" (Paris)

Jean GUERIN 2 (talk) 16:41, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

The author of "Le conservatoire National de Musique et de Déclamation ..." is "Pierre CONSTANT" and not "Pierre" ...
Jean GUERIN 2 (talk) 17:04, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for catching this error! --Robert.Allen (talk) 17:33, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Are you sure about this? Here is a link to the title page. --Robert.Allen (talk) 17:36, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

It's "Pierre CONSTANT" or very unprobably "Constant PIERRE".

Jean GUERIN 2 78.113.177.95 (talk) 18:26, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Check these other listings at WorldCat: OCLC 457744961, 457744933. His name may actually be the rather unusual "Constant Pierre". --Robert.Allen (talk) 19:09, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

The "villa outside Marseille" is now situated in the center of the town. I know very well this villa, that I inhabited during decades ...
Jean GUERIN 2 78.113.177.95 (talk) 18:26, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

There is a well-written article about "Le Passage" in French Wikipedia : http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Passage_(Lot-et-Garonne)
Jean GUERIN 2 (talk) 20:48, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Alceste Coeuriot

Some information exists about musical career of Alceste ... Described here Jean GUERIN - Paris (talk) 14:29, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Extended content

Birth : 4 october 1825 in Amsterdam. Daughter of the French tenor Paul Joseph Coeuriot (1787 ? - 1846 ?) and Victoire Marie Françoise Lestage, his wife, who is also a French singer, as "duègne" (mezzo-soprano) Jean GUERIN - Paris (talk) 09:45, 26 February 2012 (UTC) She is known according to Franch terms, as : "dugazon" when she is young, it is to say "light mezzo-soprano" http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mezzo-soprano then, older, as "duègne" (mezzo-soprano). 1851-1852 Lyon (attested by her marriage with Jean-Vital), 1854-1855 Marseille (attested by the archives of Grand Théâtre) 1869 Attested in Verviers (source to come) 1872 Attested in Valenciennes (source to come) 1875-1885 Bruxelles La Monnaie Attested earnings : 500 F per month )(in 1880, Belgium franc = French gold Franc "Germinal" - Belgium and France belong to "Union Latine", an ancestor of the €) Jean GUERIN - Paris (talk) 09:29, 26 February 2012 (UTC) 1885-1886 Le Capitole Toulouse (attested by Faust affair with Marie Garcin) Jean GUERIN - Paris (talk) 14:26, 25 February 2012 (UTC) Jean GUERIN - Paris (talk) 15:16, 25 February 2012 (UTC) Little corrections

Grave

For he grave of Jean-Vital ans Marie, I don't know if my photographs are or not a suitable source. I have all the official documents which prove that this grave is mine, and that Jean-Vital and Marie are buried in.
Jean GUERIN - Paris (talk) 20:36, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Caricatures

Better definition of "Trombinoscope" here :
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Jean-Vital_Ismael_on_Le_Trombinoscope_1877.pdf
Jean GUERIN - Paris (talk) 00:10, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Villa in Marseille

Jean-Vital bought his villa in 1861, and I have the corresponding notarized documents. The villa srill exists, and is situated in the "traverse Ismaël", in the VIIth district, neighborhood of Roucas-Blanc. The name of the street comes from the stage name of Jean-Vital. "Traverse Ismaêl 13007 Marseille" and the villa - exists on Google maps. There is a public stair, named "Escalier du Prophète" which leads from "traverse Ismaël" to "Plage du Prophète" (a beach). It has been published in local newspapers that the names "Escalier du Prophète" and "Plage du Prophète" had been attributed to these places because Ismaël was used to repeat his role of the Meyerbeer's opera "Le Prophète" on the beauch. Are these informations sufficiently sourced for Wikipedia ?
Thanks,
Jean GUERIN - Paris (talk) 22:52, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Hi Jean, Let's make an external link to it at Google Maps. Here is an example link: [3]. (Of course, I don't know where it should be.) A procedure that might wok is: use the mouse to drag the picture to where you want it and set your desired zoom. Right-click on the spot that you want in the center, and you will get a contextual menu. Select "Center map here". Once the map is centered on the your desired point by this procedure, click the "link" button (looks like a link of chain) and copy the link. Paste it into a section here called "External links". A street view might also be nice, if Google has an appropriate one. Thanks! [Update: it doesn't look like they have any street views on Traverse Ismaël.] --Robert.Allen (talk) 07:17, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Hi, Robert,

Now, the link is centered and the map shows well 'Traverse Ismaël" and "Escalier du Prophète".

Now street, view, but I can furnish my own photos ...

Sincerely yours,

Jean GUERIN - Paris (talk) 21:41, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Can you identify the house in the satellite view? --Robert.Allen (talk) 05:49, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

30-40 meters in the NNE of the landmark "A" on the map ... Jean GUERIN - Paris (talk) 15:33, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

• Jean, I see that you went ahead and added the story about the name of Plage du Prophète and Jammes practicing there. I've copyedited it for idiomatic English and left it there for now, but I really would like at least one reference which supports that story. Once again, we cannot really put material in an article which is sourced only to personal knowledge, family traditions, etc. I also pruned some of the overly detailed information about the location of his villa. This is an extremely minor aspect of his biography in encyclopedic terms, although obviously of interest to his family. Voceditenore (talk) 09:29, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Career of Jean-Vital

It's difficult enough to trace the career of Jean-Vital. I ave many obituaries of different newspapers, which are "sources" according to wikipedia, but their are not trustworthy ...
I know surely that :

• His first great scene was Bordeaux Grand Théâtre, 1848-1849,
• Then Grand Théâtre de Lyon, 1850-1852, where he marries Alceste,
• Grand Théâtre de Marseille, 1854-1860, quite a very long period ...
• Rouen 1862-1863 ...

I know nothing surely before 1848, and joint the text of current article in 1864 (Théâtre Lyrique in Paris). But I must gather suitable documents in order to redact a quality text between 1848 and 1863.
Operas in Bordeaux, Lyon, Marseille, Rouen, have archives, but not published on Internet. I explored archives of Grand Théâtre de Marseille (called "Salle Bauveau"), but no yet Bordeaux, Lyon, Rouen. To do, this, I must go in these towns.
Jean GUERIN - Paris (talk) 12:21, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

According to Kutsch & Riemens, after being turned down by the Conservatoire, he worked as a chorister in several small theatres in Belgium. Then came a long period of peregrination during which he appeared in Tournay, Brussels, Orléans, Amiens, and St. Étienne, finally obtaining jobs in the larger houses in Rouen, Marseille, Lyon, and the Monnaie in Brussels. No specific dates or roles are given. The first specific date and role mentioned (besides his singing of Max in Le chalet in 1843 before he went to Paris, which K&R place at the Grand Théâtre in Bordeaux, possibly a misreading of Fétis) is his debut at the Lyrique in 1863. Unfortunately, this large multivolume work rarely reveals the sources of its information, making it difficult to verify, and, as is the case for many reference books, especially such large compendia (including New Grove Opera), it seems to have occasional errors. --Robert.Allen (talk) 06:21, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Hi Robert,

I agree totally with you. In order to reconstitute his career, this is my method :

• I gather newspaper articles and book articles,
• I compilate theses sources which copy one another,
• So, I have presumptions of situations.
• Then, I go in each town in order to find original documents in the archives of the Operas.
• I began this in 2006, in order to publish a biography of Jean-Vital on Internet. But my work is yet on the loom.
• I discovered three days ago that you began an article on WIkipedia. So, I'm glad, and try to help ... accommodating with the rules of Wikipedia ;) I recognize that my work about Jean-Vital is an "original" and "unpublished" work, according to Wikipedia ... and I am not an authorized author !

Sincerely yours,
::78.113.177.95 (talk) 09:28, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
Jean GUERIN - Paris (talk) 09:30, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Hi Jean, Sounds like a good approach. Hopefully the town names mentioned by K&R will provide you with some additional, useful clues. The early part of his career is obviously very important for a good biography. It was the period of his education, and when he was creating his vocal style. For an essentially self-educated man, it is quite remarkable. --Robert.Allen (talk) 08:44, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Career 1848-1862

Nantes 1842-1843

Etienne Destrange (1893) gives interesting details about the épisode of "Le Chalet" and precises date (season1842-1843, director Prat). Link in the article.Jean GUERIN - Paris (talk) 17:28, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Marseille

Jean-Vital begins at the "Grand Théâtre" (salle Beauvau) in 1854 (second direction PROVINI). He remains in Marseille six seasons which seems rare.

On this stage, he creates :

1854

• Gritzenko of l’« Etoile du Nord » 30 december. Alceste is then a « Dugazon », qualifiée parfois de « de mérite ». Engaged in Marseille, she creates the rôle d’une des deux cantinières, et celui de Pétronille dans le « Souci ». Beaucoup plus tard, Alceste, spécialisée alors dans les emplois de duègnes jouera « La petite Fadette » au Château d’Eau.

1855

Extended content
« Bonsoir Voisin » 8 January, « La Promise » 9 March, « Léonore de Médicis » 23 March, « Le Chien du Jardinier » 21 October, « Les Sabots de la Marquise » 21 November, « Linda di Chamomis » 17 December.

A Aix-en Provence [4] :

• Lucia de Lammermoor, 13 novembre 1855
• Si j'étais Roi, date inconnue — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jean GUERIN 2 (talk • contribs) 23:19, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Extended content

1856 The count of Luna of the « Trouvère » 22 February. 1857 « Marino Faltero » 14 March. A cette occasion, il chante en duo avec le baryton MERLY, « techniquement inférieur, mais puissant » selon les critiques de l’époque. 1858 Charles Quint of « Ernani » 12 February, « Marco Spada » 14 April, « Maître Pathelin » 12 November, « Martha » 15 December 1859 The Sergeant Belamy of the « Dragons de Villars » 21 January, « Le Médecin malgré lui » 7 MArch, « Quentin Durward » 15 November, 1860 « Jaguarlla » 6 February, « Le Jugement de Dieu » 7 March, « Rigoletto » 12 May. Ses partenaires sont Mme MEILLET, ARMANDI, DEPASSIO. Selon les critiques d’époque, dans la scène « des courtisans », en vieux fou éperdu de douleur paternelle, il faisait passer un frisson dans la salle. Seul MERLY pouvait lui être comparé dans le rôle du bouffon.

Rouen

En 1862-1863, Jean-Vital, maintenant connu, est engagé au Théâtre des Arts de Rouen, comme « baryton en tous genres ». Il y jouera :

Extended content

« Guillaume Tell » le 15 septembre, Le « Barbier », « Lucie » le 18 septembre, « Les dragons de Villars », avec Pauline BORGHESE, et BOUVARD du Théâtre Lyrique, Le « Trouvère » avec Mme GALLI-MARIE dans Cherubini. Sous les ovations du public, Ismaël doit chanter une chanson : « L’Homme en trois couplets », Début 1863, « Si j’étais Roi ! » en remplacement du baryton VILLEFROY, « La Bohémienne », où il remplace BONNASSEUR, « Les Huguenots », avec le ténor DEPASSIO, Don Pasquale dans « Le Bouffe et le Tailleur », « La Fiancée », « Ernani » de Verdi Création de « Lalla Rounn » de F. David, Le 3 décembre 1862, « Rigoletto » avec Mlle Irène LAMBERT, le ténor MAZERINI, la basse VALETTE, et Mme GALLI-MARIE, Les « Noces de Figaro », avec Mme GALLI-MARIE.

Ismaël fait ses adieux à Rouen le 20 mai 1863, avec un acte de « La Servante maîtresse », dans « Rigoletto », et il chante même une chansonnette : « Les Parisiens ». Plus tard, Marie GARCIN, la deuxième épouse de Jean-Vital, fera partie de la troupe du Théâtre des Arts comme chanteuse légère, sous la direction d’Olive LAFON. En ce temps là, Alceste jouait toujours les rôles de duègne. Elle fera même – et gagnera - un procès à Marie pour pouvoir conserver son nom de scène « Ismaël ». Nous y reviendrons.

(I would have liked to see the Trouvère at the end of 1862 - I presume this is missing link between Cherubino after he is sent off to the army in Mozart and before he has all his teenage angst in Massenet Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 22:30, 21 February 2012 (UTC))

It may not be as far-fetched as we think. Some of the early French adaptations of foreign works were pretty way out. --Robert.Allen (talk) 02:58, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Courts passages au Havre

Pendant qu’il est baryton à Rouen, il fait une courte apparition au Havre à partir du 9 octobre 1862 pour chanter « Les Dragons de Villars » - avec Pauline BORGHESE dans le rôle de Friquet. On refuse du monde. Ismaël chante le premier acte du « Barbier » et « Le Maître de Chapelle ». Les soirées suivantes, le deuxième acte du « Trouvère », le quatrième de « La Favorite », le duo de « Roméo et Juliette », toujours avec Pauline. Il revient le 19 juillet 1866 chanter « Rigoletto », mais est malade en cours de représentation. Le 23, on joue « Guillaume Tell », et ce soir-là, Mme BARBOT (Mathilde) est malade. Deux cents spectateurs se font rembourser. Ismaël continue, fort mécontent semble-t-il. Trois jours après, deux premiers actes de « Guillaume Tell » et du « Barbier ». Jean-Vital ne reviendra plus au Havre.

I will finish translation into Englih and give sources soon ...

Jean GUERIN - Paris (talk) 16:01, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

• Yes, but please do not add any of this to the article until you (or others) can give precise references for it, newspapers, journals, books, programs. They don't have to be online, but they must have the full bibliographic information—name and date of publication, author (if any), exact title of article, etc.. Voceditenore (talk) 09:36, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

• • Hi Voce,
    
  • OK, I shall now introduce new texts of mine in "Talk". Once prepared and rewrited, they will migrate to "Article".
    
  • Sincerely yours,
    
  • Jean GUERIN - Paris (talk) 10:20, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Opéra-Comique

I will not get involved in the editing of this fabulous article, but if completeness is the aim, Malherbe [Histoire de l’Opéra-Comique (la seconde Salle Favart, 1860-1887)] mentions other roles - L'Ombre by Flotow (Docteur Antoine??), 1871, Le Voyage en Chine 1876 (Pompéry), and Piccolino (Pasteur Tidmann) Guiraud - did Ismaël create this last role? Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 22:59, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

In answer to my question, yes Noel & Stoullig's 1876 Annales give Piccolino as a creation, with 49 performances that year. Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 12:46, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

New sources for career

I added in Wikimedia Commons several obituaries published in local newspapers, which give useful details about the career of Jean-Vital in French provincial towns. Jean GUERIN - Paris (talk) 23:22, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Gherardo Casaglia

He gives 28 occurrences for Jean-Vital Jammes. If we except creations, I find :

• Théâtre Lyrique
  • 24/12/1863 Le Roi s’amuse
  • 9/9/1864 L’Alcade(Don Pasquale)
  • 26/1/1865 L’Aventurier (Ventadour ? )
  • 19/4/1865 and 21/4/1865 Macbeth
  • 25/5/1866 Les joyeuses commères
  • 11/12/1867 Lucien Dautresme’s Beaumont
• Opéra Comique
  • 22/5/1872 Bizet’s Djamileh
  • 20/1/1873 et 30/09/1874 Gounod’s Roméo et Juliette
  • 10/11/1874 Mireille
  • 8/5/1875 Emile Palhadile’s L’amour africain
  • 11/4/1876 Ernest Guiraud's Piccolino
• Théâtre Garnier - Monte Carlo
  • 18/2/1879 Ferdinando Paer’s Le Maître de Chapelle
  • 22/2/1879 L’Ombre
  • 1/3/1879 Victor Massé’s Les Noces de Jeannette

Jean GUERIN - Paris (talk) 16:38, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Summary of Jean-Vital's career

Extended content

This talk paragraph tries to summarize professionnal career of Jean-Vital. I complete current sources in "Commons" and try to investigate further. Early career 1841-1854 Very hypothetical early career of Jean-Vital. Street singer 1841 ? - 1843 ? Nantes (anecdote of "Le Chalet") Chorister in season 1842-1843 Director¨Prat "Yhéâtre Graslin" Source identified - Source Destrange Etudes musicales ? (Paris ?) (1843 ? - 1846 ?) Many towns in Belgium and France (during 16 months ? : 1846-1848 ?) Namur Verviers Saint-Etienne Amiens Tournay Orléans Bordeaux 1848-1849 - Less or more identified Spain ? Italy ? Lyon 1851 ? -1852 - Identified by the marriage with Alceste Bordeaux again ? Marseille 1854-1860 - Source "Le Petit Provençal" identified Edited Jean GUERIN - Paris (talk) 23:29, 24 February 2012 (UTC) 17 July 1861 He buys his villa in Marseille — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jean GUERIN 2 (talk • contribs) 12:20, 23 February 2012 (UTC) 1860-1861 - Lyon again ? 1861-1862 - Bruxelles - La Monnaie (source ; J. Isnardon in Le Théâtre de la Monnaie (sur Gallica)). We find perhaps Alceste at La Monnaie between 1875 and 1885 (date of the divorce) (same source, attesting every year a "Mme Ismaël). And in 1885-1886, she is in Toiulouse ... Rouen 1862-1863 - Less or more identified Théâtre Lyrique 1863-1868 - Less or more identified Reedit Jean GUERIN - Paris (talk) 00:51, 25 February 2012 (UTC) Marseille 1868-1869 - Souces to come Liège 1871 - Souces to come Opéra Comique from october 1871 - Souces to come Jean GUERIN - Paris (talk) 11:15, 25 February 2012 (UTC) 1868-1875 ?? Bruxelles ? 1868-1871 Opéra-Comique attested 1872-1874 Conservatory - December 1874-February 1876 - Attested Late career 1875-1882 Théâtre de la Renaissance 1876-1880 - Attested (with Monte-Carlo) ?? 1880-1882 Marseille march 1882 ! The end ... 1882-1893 In Marseille, Jean-Vital gives singing lessons to many future artists. He participates to social life of the town, and between 1882 and 1889, travels around to follow Marie's career. (Documents to come). Some former pupils of Jean-Vital during this period had led testimonies, and several journalists wrote about it, producing lists of pupils. (documents to come) Edit Jean GUERIN - Paris (talk) 09:00, 27 February 2012 (UTC) Jean GUERIN - Paris (talk) 12:03, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Professor at Conservatory

Jean-Vital replaces Mister Obin as "Professeur de déclamation lyrique au Conservatoire National de musique et de déclamation" on the 1st February 1874. His stipends are 1 200 gold francs a year - very low for him - but he considers himself this job as the peak of his professional career. He signs his last wills "Jean-Vital Jammes, ancien Professeur au Conservatoire".
He is suddenly revocated on the 23 december 1876, for gloomy reasons (certainly somthing like a sex scandal).

Sources : French Ministerial orders of nomination and revocation. "Archives Nationales" Last wills of Jean-Vital Jammes (notarized documents).

Jean GUERIN - Paris (talk) 19:51, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

It's good that these dates are in agreement with Constant Pierre (or Pierre Constant: do you still think this is his name?). I corrected an obvious error I made when I added it. I'm surprised nobody caught this. Of course that source has no details about proceedings, or reasons, etc. --Robert.Allen (talk) 06:41, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

"In straightened financial circumstances caused by his dismissal from the Conservatory, he returned to the stage" is certainly false. Jean-Vital earned 1 200 gold francs each year as Professor on Coservatory. For instance, at the time, a school teacher earned approximatively 600 gold francs in a year. In 1855 in Marseille, Jean-Vital earned 2 000 gold francs in a month ... When he died, he owned a fortune ... Jean-Vital has been a benefactor of my family for XXth and XXIth centuries ...

I have seen the complete file of this affair in "Archives Nationales" in Paris. The file explains nothing ... what means that its was certainly a sex scandal. This sex scandal is perhaps simply his encounter and relationship with Marie Garcin. She was 18 years old (minor) and he 51 and married ! I'm gathering documents now to prove - or invalidate - it.

78.113.177.95 (talk) 09:18, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Jean GUERIN - Paris (talk) 09:31, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I changed the wording slightly, but it wasn't "false". "Straightened financial circumstances" means "reduced financial circumstances". His salary at the conservatory was considerably less than he had earned on the opera stage, which he appears to have given up to take the post. When he lost his post, he had a significant, albeit temporary, reduction in his income. This doesn't mean that he did not die a rich man. Voceditenore (talk) 13:41, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

It is not clear. I think that, during his job as Professor, he went on playing on stage ... I'm trying to confirmate / infirmate ... Jean GUERIN - Paris (talk) 13:52, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Even if he had sung a few times while he was a professor, the sudden loss of a 1200 franc annual salary, results in reduced financial circumstances. It would be interesting to know if he had performed at all while he was a professor. The various sources seemed to imply that he returned to the stage with La tzigane in 1877. Voceditenore (talk) 14:56, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I have nothing clear between 1868 and 1876. He was perhaps in Belgium, after bankruptcy of Carvalho and war ... After 1st February 1874 and the job of Professor, my first trace is "L"Ombre" of Flotow at Opéra-Comique, Salle Favart, 1876 (Doctor Mirouët, in place of Meillet, deceased). So it seems that he sings in 1876. But I have not yet original proofs. Then I find in 1879 Broudoudour in "La jolie Persane" de Lecoq, at Théâtre de la Renaissance. I'm organizing and sourcing these data for Wikipedia ...

And you find yourself that he creates "Le Florentin" and "Gilles & Gillotin" in 1874 (25 February and 22 April) : he had been professor since the 1st February. I must go and fetch the archives of the "Opéra Comique". It's easy enough for me : I live in Paris ...

The last performance at scene of Jean-Vital seems to be situated on March 1882, in Marseille with "l'Ombre" of Fmotow

Jean GUERIN - Paris (talk) 15:25, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I assume you you mean The spectre, L'ombre (sometimes just called L'ombre) by Flotow? That's interesting. I wondered if he had any later performances than Les voltigeurs de la 32ème in 1880. Do you have a reference for that? Voceditenore (talk) 16:33, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Hi Voce, It's l'"Ombre" by Flotow, as I know. My source for March 1882, at Salle Beauvau Marseille, is the obituary of "Le Petit Provençal", Part 2 / 2, available in the Commons.Jean GUERIN - Paris (talk) 20:18, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

The "plaidoyer / pro domo" of Jean-Vital

I added in Wikimedia Commons the fac-simile of the booklet (17 pages) that Jean-Vital published in March 1877, explaining his point of view about the affair of the Conservatory. This text is the only long text of Jean-Vital I know.Jean GUERIN - Paris (talk) 23:26, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

This looks fascinating! Voceditenore (talk) 16:33, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

And I find extraordinary this long text written elegantly by a man uncultivated enough, except his talent of singer and comedian. I'm trying to validate / invalidate certain points of it from rolls of the pupils of Jean-Vital at the Conservatory.Jean GUERIN - Paris (talk) 18:27, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I moved this to its own category: Commons:Category:Jean-Vital Jammes 1893 Justification. I started transcribing the images into searchable text and added links to all the pages on each individual image page. Hopefully this will make it easier to navigate. --Robert.Allen (talk) 00:45, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for your useful classification in "Commons".Jean GUERIN - Paris (talk) 14:56, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Odd Things ...

In 1874, Ambroise Thomas is Director of the "Conservatoire de Paris"

• On the 1st February 1874, Jean-Vital becomes Professor at the Conservatory,
• On 22 April 1874, he creates Gille et Gillotin of Amrnoise Thomas,
• On 26 December 1876, Ambroise Thomas is still Director, and Jean-Vital revocated.
  78.113.177.95 (talk) 23:03, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Jean GUERIN - Paris (talk) 23:05, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Hard to know. Thomas may have been responsible for the decision, or he may have been pressured into doing it. There are so many possibilities. --Robert.Allen (talk) 00:48, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Title of the article

I don't know what the policy is about titles in cases like this. With Désiré (baritone), it was decided to use the stage name, since it was indexed that way in Kutsch & Riemens. That is not to say Kutsch & Riemens is infallible, however. (I think I've probably come across roughly as many errors in K & R as in Casaglia's database.) --Robert.Allen (talk) 12:10, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Terea are many possible titles for the article : either "Jean-Vital Jammes" or "Ismaël" - his stage name, or any combination.

Jean GUERIN 2 (talk) 12:49, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

• It's a toss-up really. But, given the title of his New York Times obituary and the Pierre reference, I went with this one. I wouldn't base it on the K & R. Note that there are plenty of redirects to this article, so no one will have a problem finding it: Jean-Vital Ismaël Jammes, Ismaël (baritone), Ismaël (singer), Jean-Vital Ismael and Jean-Vital Ismaël. – Voceditenore (talk) 14:08, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
• The current title is perfect for me :)
• Jean GUERIN 2 (talk) 14:37, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

I agree the current title is fine, and the redirect is sufficient. --Robert.Allen (talk) 17:31, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

What was already a very nice article has been improved even more in the recent days. - My comment is not about the naming of the article, but rather about the name given in role tables such as eg Ourrias in Mireille. I feel that putting 'Jean-Vital Jammes ("Ismaël")' in articles is confusing: a reader may not know why the (Ismael) is there, or why the other names are being used. I know that some editors feel strongly that all the names should be given in titles and in links, but I think it would be less confusing simply to give his usual stage-name, Ismael, with the link here. Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 23:56, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

In France, we have for instance :

"Jean-Philippe Smet", état-civil, dit "Johnny Halliday", stage name,

"Annie Chancel", état-civil, dite "Sheila", stage name,

"Achod Malakian", état-civil, dit "Henri Verneuil", stage name.

These artists are known as "Johnny Halliday", "Sheila" and "Henri Verneuil", but not as "Johnny Smet" or "Annie Sheila" or "Henri Malakian".

Jean-Vital signed his last wills (that I own) "Jean-Vital Jammes dit Ismaël". Then, for me, "Jean-Vital-Ismaël Jammes" sounds like "Henri Malakian"

Jean GUERIN - Paris (talk) 01:15, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Cg2p0B0u8m. I think we should just use the stage name in the role tables, piping the link to this article. --Robert.Allen (talk) 01:47, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

I was the one who lengthened the names in the role tables the other day, as I wasn't sure what had been cited in the references for those articles. Some references give simply "Ismael", others the full whack or other variations on the theme. But I agree, it's potentially confusing. I'm happy with just Ismaël piped to Jean-Vital Jammes. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 06:42, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

No problem. Full real names in the role table may be more important when we don't have an article on the artist. In this case we have a really nice one, so I think the stage name alone will be fine. --Robert.Allen (talk) 07:22, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Sources

I'm copying Jean GUERIN's original message from my talk page as I think it needs more general discussion here.

Hi,
Thanks for initializing the Wikipedia article about Jean-Vital !
However, this article has been written from sources which are compilation books or newspapers copying one another without any verification. I have been gathering precise and official documents about Jean-Vital for about six years. These are either official French documents or family documents and photographs. My documents are “primary sources” in Wikipedia understanding, but I assert that they approach the truth closier than fanciful texts of “Touchatout” ! I will try during the next weeks to give you more valid information according to the rules of Wikipedia.
Sincerely yours,
Jean GUERIN - Paris 21:33, 18 February 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jean GUERIN 2 (talk • contribs)

Hi Jean, I understand your point, but please note that this article is not based on the material in the satirical magazine Trombinoscope. That would be like using Private Eye to source an article. It is based on published entries in French biographical dictionaries and his obituaries in Le Ménestrel and the New York Times. Yes, primary sources such as birth, marriage and death certificates may sometimes be used for simple facts like birth or death dates, names of spouses and children, place of birth, death, etc. But the key qualifier at Wikipedia:Primary sources is "primary sources that have been reliably published". For example, a blurry and unreadable photograph of pieces of a birth certificate scanned from a private collection doesn't really qualify. Nor does material from what we call self-published or user-generated websites. You can read more about sourcing policy at Wikipedia:SOURCES and Wikipedia:USERG. These are the guidelines we have to work within on Wikipedia. Voceditenore (talk) 07:45, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Hi Voce,

I understand your point. Nevertheless, I think that I'm not the only heir of a "celebrity" who owns the most complete collection of documents about this celebrity ...

For instance, the article ignores obviously the long and successful career of Jean-Vital in Marseille during the 1850's - It is to say before Carvalho. I own photographs of some payrolls and others of the "Grand Théâtre" of Marseille during this period. This photographs come from collections of "Archives départementales des Bouches du Rhône"

I'm certainly the only person who owns these photographs. And I have many photographs and documents obtained by this way, or contained in my own inherited collection.

How cans these sources - never published - become suitable in Wikipedia ? There is certainly a policy of Wikipedia about this case ?

Sincerely yours,

78.113.177.95 (talk) 12:29, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Hi Voce,

For instance, these are Internet references - on an official French government website - of Jean-Vital and Marie Garcin's wedding :

http://doris.archives13.fr/dorisuec/jsp/system/win_main.jsp

Theb type :

Marseille – Registres paroissiaux et d’état-civil

1885 – avril – Registre 3 – page Internet 67 / 137 – Acte N° 162

This source precises the exact name and date of birth of Rose Françoise Marie Garcin and Jean-Vital Jammes. And the exact name of Alceste Anastasie Hortense COEURIOT, his first wife.

Is this a suitable Wikipedia source ?

Sincerely yours,

78.113.177.95 (talk) 16:04, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Jean GUERIN - Paris (talk) 16:10, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Hi Jean, When I click on your link which is supposed to have the marriage info, I get an error: "Etat HTTP 404 - /dorisuec/%3Chtml%3E%3Ctitle%3EErreur%20interne%20programme%3C/title%3E%3Cmeta%20http-equiv=". It's possible that the relevant server was offline when I tried it, so I will try again at a different hour of the day. With regard to the birth certificate, if it is a public record which can be accessed by anyone, then it might qualify as a verifiable document. Typically birth certificates in the U.S. are not publicly available, but that may not hold for someone died in 1893, or perhaps in France rules are different. I do think it would have to be available for more or less anyone to inspect. --Robert.Allen (talk) 07:03, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

I've also tried both yesterday and today and get a 404. In any case, we have the various information and dates that are relevant. It would be great to have more information about his performances in Marseille. Suitable references for that would be published reviews, books on the history of the Opéra de Marseille, or online archives of the Opéra de Marseille. Scans of payroll slips or contracts are not suitable. A scan of a programme might be. It would depend. We also have to remember that too much intricate detail in the body of the article isn't suitable either and is distracting to the reader. For example, I placed the exact location of Ismaël's grave at the Cimetière Saint-Pierre in a footnote. See also my comment on images below. Voceditenore (talk) 07:32, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

I think programs qualify as publications. Many music libraries have the programs of various orchestras in sets of bound volumes. Those of the Boston Symphony are a good example. Many orchestras archive these online now. I don't see any problem with citing them. Your comment about the amount of detail is good. I tend to sometimes add too much detail. However, detail and facts interest me. (Maybe because I was a scientist during my working life. This may also account for the "sourceritis" that I suffer from [according to my esteemed colleague Kleinzach] – but so far it hasn't proved fatal. :-) --Robert.Allen (talk) 08:33, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

French "Archives Départementales"

Hi,
Try this : http://www.archives13.fr/archives13/CG13/

Click on "Etat-Civil"
Click on "lien vers le site externe "Accès aux registres paroissiaux et d'état-civil"
Then type :
Marseille – Registres paroissiaux et d’état-civil
1885 – avril – Registre 3 – page Internet 67 / 137 – Acte N° 162

In France, "Actes d'Etat-Civil" are public documents after 75 years. They are legal French truth about people. Most of them are published on Internet, on "Aechives Démartementales" sites.
Here, the collection of "Archives départementales" sites available :
http://fr.geneawiki.com/index.php/Archives_en_ligne

"Archives Départementales" MUST communicate these documents to any citizen on first demand - when the document exists, of course.

French authorities try to publish on Internet as many archives as possible. In this way, they admit private publications, for instance my own genealogical photographic site :
https://picasaweb.google.com/117035546654728931323
approved by French authorities.

Jean GUERIN - Paris (talk) 13:35, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Certificates of French "Etat-Civil"

I added référence to Jean-Vital and Alceste wedding, on 24 january 1852. This certificate guarantees that Alceste and Jea-Vital were "Pensionnaires du Grand Théâtre de Lyon" in January 1852. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jean GUERIN 2 (talk • contribs) 12:39, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
Jean GUERIN - Paris (talk) 12:51, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

New source : Paris Théâtre 1873

Biography in Wikimedia Commons - Category Jean-Vital Jammes - Jean GUERIN - Paris (talk) 11:10, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Images

I've rearranged and resized some of the images as the placement of the recent additions had created large gaps of white space in the article and made the format unattractive and cluttered. I also removed the one of the side view of the vault. Images should be used in an article to show a variety of relevant aspects of the person's life and career, but the article shouldn't become a picture gallery of every image available (see image policy and guidelines. What I have done is place a link at the foot of the article to the Commons page where all the images relating to Ismaël are available (see left). Voceditenore (talk) 07:32, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Hi Voce,

You did fine job ... I have dozens of photographs of Jean-Vital, Marie, the villa of Marseille, and dozens of documents and texts. I have also many objects, and scene accessories of Jean-Vital (swords). I understand very well that I'm certainly too enthusiastic about photographs !  ;)

Jean GUERIN - Paris (talk) 12:26, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

• The recent addition of the Villa in Marseille is fine, although I've had to do considerable adjustments to the layout of the page to accommodate it without skewing the format. I also added subheadings for different periods of his life. However, the article now has as many pictures as practicable and relevant for the amount of text it contains, and I would ask you not to add any more to the article itself until it has been sufficiently expanded to accommodate them. If you upload any more to commons, put a link to them here so we can have a look at them, but it's better not to place the whole image on the talk page as it makes it too long to load. Voceditenore (talk) 09:49, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Portraits in the oil of Jean-Vital

I have added in commons a protrait in the oil of Jean-Vital yooung in dress scene : http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Isma%C3%ABl_jeune_in_dress_scene.jpg Jean GUERIN - Paris (talk) 13:47, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I will introduce soon a large an beautiful portrait in the oil of Jean-Vital old and with beard ... I try to obtain a good pict ... Jean GUERIN - Paris (talk) 18:27, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

New photographs of the newspaper articles

I shall make new photographs of the newspapers obituaries, they will be easier to read ... Jean GUERIN - Paris (talk) 18:29, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

The chronometer of Jean-Vital

I published in Wikimedia Commons two photogrpahs of a gold English chronometer belonging to Jean-Vital and engraved with : "Théâtre Lyrique - Ismaël". I think it was something like a gift ...Jean GUERIN - Paris (talk) 23:29, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

A stage sword of Jean-Vital

I added a photograph of an Ismaël's stage sword. I don't know for what role Jean-Vital wore it, but it is certain that it is a stage sword, from circa 1855, according to the experts ef Klingenthal French Manufactury of swords.
Jean GUERIN - Paris (talk) 00:22, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Photographies of Jean-Vital and Marie

Two pictures of the couple : one "official portrait" by Ouvière, and a photograph in front of their villa ... Jean GUERIN - Paris (talk) 23:11, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Photographies of Marie Garcin

One "official portrait" by C. Mouth of Marie Garcin in stage dress at Lille.Jean GUERIN - Paris (talk) 23:11, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Layout

The current layout is perfect for me with my browser (IE9) and my screen (1 600 x 1 200 pixels). Jean GUERIN - Paris (talk) 12:29, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Hi Voceditenore, What is it about the villa and tomb pics that you don't like? (Pic layout is always a bit of a problem, and also fairly subjective, so there is lots of room for disagreement. Maybe we should discuss it a bit, if you have the time.) [Update: I thought Jammes' portrait was somewhat too big too, but didn't change it. The caption does not wrap for me at the current setting of upright=1.15. It could possibly be even smaller. I don't see wrap at upright=1.1 either, but at 1.05, I do get wrapping.] --Robert.Allen (talk) 21:51, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Style and others - Thanks for your help

Hi Voce and Robert,
First af all, thank you very much for your rewriting of my texts. It's obvoious that English is not my mother language ...
Then, I'm extracting suitable information from my own biography of Jean-Vital (on the loom, in French, and not encyclopedic but more familiar). So, I'm translating texts and gathering references (for instance, I'm searching the newspaper article in order to reference the history of "Le Prophète"). First of all, I will finish translation and sourcing of Jean-Vital career between 1852 and 1862 before introducing in in the article.
Then, I have two portraits in the oil of Jean-Vital to introduce : one in the rôle of "Guillaume Tell" and one "official" portrait.
Thanks again and sincerely yours,
Jean GUERIN - Paris (talk) 10:06, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Sources and verifications

Hi,
In general rule, I shall go on to introduce sources in Commons or by links to government sites.
Independantly of it, I'll go and fetch informations in the Archives of différent Operas. This will take time : it is not my only work ! I think about one year at least. With different possible results : archives exist or not, and their information is good or not. I can also try to find other obituaries in local collections of newspapers.
That will allow us to prepare pertinent sections of the biography ...
Sincerely yours,
Jean GUERIN - Paris (talk) 18:21, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Edits to Roles created section - please slow down folks

JGN - Hi Voce,

Some coments in your text

Sincerely yours,

I have reverted the formatting introduced into this section which confused role creation (i.e. singing in the world premiere) and role performance. Note also, it is much better to list the roles created in chronological order, not by theatre. I have re-added the performance listing for Rouen under its own heading Performances at the Théâtre des Arts, Rouen 1862-1863 and formatted it properly. However I have removed some of the information which is very confusing and/or doubtful and will need further clarification before it can be re-added.

• the « Trouvère » with Mrs Galli-Marié as Cherubini. Sous les ovations du public, Ismaël doit chanter une chanson : « L’Homme en trois couplets »,

Is this Verdi's Le trouvère??? As far as I know there is no character named Cherubini in it and the song which he sang (presumably as an encore) cannot be found anywhere under that title. Who wrote it? Where is it from?

• Don Pasquale in Le Bouffe et le Tailleur

??? I assume you mean the one-act opéra-bouffon by Pierre Gaveaux?. As far as I know, there is no character in it named "Don Pasquale"

JGN - Apparently, false information in "Le journal de Rouen".

• Création of Lalla Rounn by F. David

??? I can find no opera by that name at all, please check the spelling

It is better to leave information out rather than put in wrong, confusing, or misleading information. Also when adding information like this, please do so in English. I can understand French, but the majority of our readers do not. We are writing for English speaking readers.

JGN - Sorry for the sentence that I had forgotten... I added this text between 14:52 and 15:00 and your first edit takes place at 15:05, during my own checking of the text - prepared before in my sandbox ... ;)

JGN - There is nevertheless a question for me. In what language must be written the titles of the operas ? There are several possibilities : the original, the language of the performance, or English ?

There is absolutely no reason to rush putting material into the article before it is ready and has been carefully checked, and when it is put in, it needs to respect the existing formatting and Wikipedia's Manual of Style. Voceditenore (talk) 16:23, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

• Update: Jean GUERRIN 2 had uploaded a photograph of the newspaper obituary from which the Rouen section was sourced. However, it's very illegible. I've made a slightly more legible version of it at File:Le journal de Rouen black and white.jpg. On a first check, I can see where some of the problems came from. Don Pasquale was a separate performance from Le Bouffe et le Tailleur. Galli-Marie was Cherubino in The Marriage of Figaro not Le trouvère. The mysterious "Lalla Rounn" is probably Lalla Roukh by Félicien David. However, that opera premiered in Paris in 1862. But that was only the first glance. There are still a lot of anomalies and problems with the section. Everything in that section needs to be carefully cross-checked with the Journal de Rouen article (and preferably double-checked with other sources) and corrected where necessary. Anything in doubt needs to be omitted. My own view is that the ones that can be verified/deciphered might be better summarized and added to a separate prose paragraph about his time in Rouen, rather than in list format. But before any of that is done, can we please discuss it here first and agree how to approach it, rather than filling the article with a load of mistakes that have be repaired (causing even more work) and misleading our readers in the meantime. Voceditenore (talk) 17:39, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

JGN - I agree, and I offer to create a section for this at the top of this page ?

• I suggest you work on a draft in your sandbox. When you are done, add it here at the bottom of the page in its own section (always add new sections at the bottom of a talk page, never at the top). Then we can go over it and check it for accuracy, put it into idiomatic English, format it, etc. Please don't paste it directly into the article until we can look at it and comment first. As for opera titles, we use the original language title, but if an opera has two distinct versions, such as La trouvère/Il trovatore, it's OK to use the title of the version performed. For some operas which have well-known English titles (The Barber of Seville), we use English titles. The guidelines are here. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 18:33, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I didn't check all the revision history, but I like this section the way it is shaping up now. Regarding the opera titles, perhaps we should consider putting the actual article title in parentheses after the French title of the performance, and link it there (or would this be too cumbersome). --Robert.Allen (talk) 22:18, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Re: La Fiancée in Rouen

I found this source: [5]. Does it say that Ismaël sang in Auber's opéra-comique La Fiancée in Rouen on 22 March 1863? [These are partial previews and may be blocked for some viewers.] --Robert.Allen (talk) 02:31, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Hi Robert, I think that you are right and that you have found "the mine" for "Théâtre des Arts" ... Sincerely yours, Jean GUERIN - Paris (talk) 08:12, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes, that's the way I read it too. (I could see the whole page.) Voceditenore (talk) 16:08, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Other roles in Rouen

The same source also seems to say he appeared in Rouen in Gounod's Roméo et Juliette as Frère Laurent on 19 March 1875 [6]; in Gounod's Mireille (Dec 1864 rev. version?) as Ourrias on 23 March 1870 [7]; and as Don Pasquale on p. 100 (I can't see a date, as it is a blocked page.) [Again these are partial previews and some pages may be blocked for some viewers.] --Robert.Allen (talk) 03:27, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Hi Robert, I must find this book ... About March 1870, this should be very useful in order to precise what did Jean-Vital do at this time ... Some people say that he was in Belgium ... Sincerely yours, Jean GUERIN - Paris (talk) 08:26, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Texts prepared for introduction

Performances at the Grand Théâtre, Marseille 1854-1860

I have now added the material in this section to the article at Jean-Vital Jammes#Performances at the Théâtre des Arts, Rouen 1862-1863 . This section in its entirety is now archived at Talk:Jean-Vital Jammes/Archive 1 Voceditenore (talk) 14:52, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Images at the English Wikipedia

I'm confused why these images (for example, File:Le journal de Rouen black and white.jpg) are being added here rather than at Commons. It will be easier to keep track of these things if we put them all in Commons:Category:Jean-Vital Jammes or subcategories thereof. --Robert.Allen (talk) 00:55, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Feel free to transfer them. I hate using Commons. :(( Half the time the alleged "Wizard" screws things up, plus they often require double licenses in some more complicated cases, none of which are easily found and none of which make clear all the the cases in which they can be used. File:Jean-Vital Jammes and Marie Garcin.jpg is a case in point. This is a cropped version of File:Jean-Vital and Marie 1.jpg on Commons. That one qualifies under {{PD-old-70}}, but if you've uploaded it to Commons, you may be asked to "prove" either that it wasn't published anywhere else prior to the date of uploading (otherwise it could be subject to the new US extended copyright of 95 years after the author's death) or was in the public domain in France as of 1996. Since the photographer died in 1931, it wasn't. I've seen these problems come up a lot when articles are put up for Featured article status. Drives me nuts. Voceditenore (talk) 08:45, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for answering. I've about given up on trying to understand it all. I uploaded the poster for Leoncavallo's La bohème to the English Wikipedia, since the creator was not identified, and it was originally published in 1897. I wasn't sure it was PD in Italy or not. An admin on Commons, with whom I've had some problems previously, promptly moved it to Commons without discussion, in the process using some sort of bot which then messed up the English description. He also deleted the original so quickly that I couldn't access the history to restore the info (not that it was that difficult to recreate). Then he failed to give any response when I left a question about it on his talk page. Very aggravating. To me the main question should be: will Commons have problems if we add these things. With these old documents, often with anonymous authorship, it just seems awfully unlikely to me. (With anonymous works, there is little or no case law, so there is a lot of uncertaintly.) If there IS a complaint, then it can always be removed. (Sometimes anonymous works become non-anonymous.) In any case, I added links to your versions here in the file descriptions on Commons, which helps get around possible problems of finding them should they be removed from this article at some point. It's a nuisance having to move these things from one site to the other, and the edit histories get lost. BTW, I use this form to upload to Commons, which I find faster and easier, plus it has a Preview button that is very handy and adding categories works very nicely with it as well. (Personally, I think for categorizing, it's better if all images are on Commons. All we should have to do is put a warning when it may not be PD outside the US. But perhaps the differences in the editing community are such that Commons is more restrictive? Don't know. I find it seems to depend very much on the specific editor. I've been forced to move pics from there to here, and vice versa. Aaargh!) --Robert.Allen (talk) 09:12, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

PS- I left a comment for you Voceditenore above at #Layout, which you may have missed on this now very complicated talk page. I did not understand what you dislike about the villa and tomb pics. Size? Position? Subject? Tying them together with the multiimage template? --Robert.Allen (talk) 09:21, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Well, I'm not to keen on sticking them together as a single large unit. It gives far less flexibility concerning size and placement. There was no real reason to have the villa image so large, but it was forced to be by the width of the tomb image. Frankly, I'm wondering how much the tomb image really adds to the article anyway. Generally tombs only go in an article if they are remarkable architecturally in themselves, or the article has a shortage of images. That's definitely not the case here. Voceditenore (talk) 15:15, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Odd link

When I click on this link Marriage Register, La Guillotière 1852, p. 18., I essentially see a blank frame. There does not seem to be any way to search the archive (the "Retour à la recherche" link is inactive) and I was unable to enter text in the search box. I was also unable to find a home page. (Perhaps a server was offline when I tried this.) --Robert.Allen (talk) 02:35, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes, it used to work, but now doesn't. :/. I've changed the link to give the generic search page (always less preferable, but we have no choice). You just fill in the search box with the remainder of the information in the footnote and it should come come up. At least it did 5 minutes ago. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 06:45, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Official French sites use softwares not very accurate, xhich do not admit for instance direct access to pages. This is why I gave first "a link and instructions...". Links to generic search pages run very well.78.113.177.95 (talk) 08:20, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, I found it! Very interesting to me, since I have never seen 19th-century French legal documents like these before. Also, good practice for me in translating. (I'm learning ... slowly.) --Robert.Allen (talk) 08:28, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

In little villages, such as "Le Passage", "Actes d'état-civil" are frequently badly written before 1850 (Second Empire). And mistakes on first names occur frequently. In general rule, it's necessary to overlap the different certificates of a person to have secure information. So, I shall introduce soon links (or access methods) to other certificates of Jean-Vital (death) and Marie (birth). For Alceste, I know that his date of birth in Amsterdam (no access available currently, as I know), and I don't know where she died. My only documents are marriage and divorce (to come)Jean GUERIN - Paris (talk) 15:08, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Interwiki language links

Are you aware of Template:Link-interwiki? If so, would you object to my adding it? It produces links like this: {{Interlanguage link multi|Louis Clapisson|fr|lt=Clappison's}} ''La Promise''. --Robert.Allen (talk) 10:00, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Be my guest. I had no idea that nifty little device existed.:) Voceditenore (talk) 10:47, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Good idea, I'm now writing the correspnding French article, and this type of link wil certainly be useful ... Jean GUERIN - Paris (talk) 14:08, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Archiving not deleting

Jean Guerrin 2, will you please stop randomly removing posts from this talk page. Voceditenore (talk) 14:11, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

I don't remove posts "randomly" ... I remove exclusively my own texts duplicating other texts of mine ... If you have a better method, I'm OK ? Jean GUERIN - Paris (talk) 14:16, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

This is not the way to do it, whether or not they are your own posts. It makes a mess of the talk page, making it even more confusing, and removing a useful record of what was said here. (See WP:TALK for more guidance on this.) The proper way to do this is to archive posts. I have made an archive page at Talk:Jean-Vital Jammes/Archive 1. If you wish to remove a section, please cut it from here and paste it to the archive in its entirety. Do not remove parts of sections or signatures. If you wish to leave some of a section on this talk page, make a new post with the material you want to keep. Voceditenore (talk) 14:23, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

OK. Here's what I've done. I've archived section Texts prepared for introduction (above) in its entirety and left a note under the section heading. The material that you had wanted to remove wasn't really suitable for archiving yet, because there are still parts there under discussion and people's comments on the material you tried to remove. It's never a good idea to archive material until you can archive the entire section. Otherwise, subsequent comments left here make no sense, because the material they were commenting on is no longer on the page. However, to make more room, I have simply collapsed the parts you wanted to remove. They are still on the page just hidden. When there is no longer any material to be discussed in those sections, they can then be archived in their entirety. Voceditenore (talk) 15:05, 24 February 2012 (UTC)