Talk:Jean V of Parthenay
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Article sections
editArticle sections - no comments
|
---|
I took a stab at this grouping of sections, pulling Personal life out into its own group. I will be adding a bit about how John V focused on his public life and Antoinette took care of their personal life. There were bits of information that threaded through the public life type of sections, and got a bit lost, without cohesion or context. This is the current format: (Top) Early life Religion The beginning (1539–1553) French Wars of Religion (1562–1598) The Massacre of Wassy (1562) Death (1566) A chaotic fate See also Does this layout, which is a stab at getting to a good format, work? It would be lovely to have feedback about this - and what changes could make it better.–CaroleHenson (talk) 17:30, 30 June 2023 (UTC) |
Cohesive religion and conversion section
editI am thinking about moving the conversion conversation into "Religion" and summarizing it there. Right now there's information throughout several sections and in my opinion it would be good to make it a cohesive discussion. How does that sound?–CaroleHenson (talk) 16:58, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
- I should have said done, but would appreciate comments about approach or content. I have more I am going to add.–CaroleHenson (talk) 18:07, 2 July 2023 (UTC)
Article cleanup
editArticle cleanup, synch up names and titles - long section
|
---|
Currently, there is a cleanup tag on the article that states "This article may require copy editing for grammar, style, cohesion, tone, or spelling." I have been working on:
This is essentially an FYI, so you know where I am headed, but if any of this doesn't make sense, I am happy to change course / tweak the course to make the article even better.–CaroleHenson (talk) 17:25, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
Names used in the articleedit
--- work in progress
I am assuming that this is an okay approach in many cases. So when someone has multiple titles, the one selected for the article I am guessing was how he was most commonly known. The only thing that I think is an issue is that in my earnestness to not have multiple titles for the same person, there might be some who hadn't attained the title that is used for the article name by an event(s) mentioned in the article. For instance, Henri II of France became king in 1574, and before that was Duke of Orléans and then Duke of Anjou, but it seems most commonly known as Duke of Orléans. In that case, I think I should use the title that is relevant for the time — and, in my opinion, refer to when he required the title in the article name, perhaps in a note. If anyone has an informed opinion better than my potentially flawed deduction, that would be really helpful to know. In the meantime, I will go through and update the titles based upon the specific time in an article, sentence, etc.–CaroleHenson (talk) 14:21, 2 July 2023 (UTC) Check for people who attained those titles latereditCopied list from above to avoid a refractoring (right term?) issue - and create a checklist to work through:
–CaroleHenson (talk) 14:28, 2 July 2023 (UTC)
|
This section is Done, still have to deal with some uncited content.–CaroleHenson (talk) 18:38, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
Uncited content
editUncited content - In my opinion, the most worthwhile additions are from those who cited their content. Otherwise, we don't know if it's original research / personal opinion - or content from a reliable source.
In my opinion, uncited content should be removed... and wait and see what additional cited information could be added for context, background, or evaluation. It's hard enough to research French / English combination of sources, backing into uncited info is brutal. Does anyone have a concern about that?–CaroleHenson (talk) 17:25, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
- I have just a couple of places where I need to add a citation, but I otherwise finished clearing out the uncited text. Done–CaroleHenson (talk) 15:19, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
Marshal Vieuville, baron de Gordes
editI am intrigued by the following line of this article "In Lyon, Jean V and his lawyer researched documents about his actions that were held by Marshal de Vieuville, Lord of Gordes."
I know of no Marshal of that name. I know a Marshal Vielleville, I wonder if there has been a confusion there. Even if there has been though I do not believe Vielleville was the lord of Gordes. The lord of Gordes would have been Bertrand-Rambaud de Simiane? sovietblobfish (talk) 16:51, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
- I remembering researching that quite a bit to sort out who that was beyond the title. I'll poke around.–CaroleHenson (talk) 21:02, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
- First of all,
- The current sentence is " In Lyon, Jean V and his lawyer researched documents about his actions that were held by Marshal de Vieuville, Lord of Gordes. Viète also produced a summarization of Jean V's behavior the previous year, during his administration of the city of Lyon.[34]" citing Haag p. 341
- The version here before I started working on the article was
Antoinette d'Aubeterre then hired, with the agreement of her husband, one of the most famous young Poitevin lawyers, the future master of requests of Henri III and Henri IV, the cryptographer and mathematician François Viète. Jean de Parthenay approves it on his return from Lyon, after having returned the keys of this city to the lord of Gordes. François Viète whose basic training is legal has already pleaded several victorious trials; he is not known as a Protestant and comes to settle in the Soubise park at the beginning of the year 1564 in order to consult the genealogical archives. Thanks to him, Jean de Parthenay manages to wash away any suspicion of complicity.
- First of all,
For his defense, his lawyer accompanies Jean de Parthenay to Lyon to look for traces of his actions while the documents are still in the hands of Marshal de Vieuville, Lord of Gordes. He then produced a memoir in which he simply gave to read the nobility of Jean de Parthenay's behavior the previous year, during his administration of the city of Lyon (admirable for his qualities in supplying according to Jacques Auguste de Thou).[49] - Haag, no page number
- Second, it's hard to find something in Haag, so I am going to do more research.
- Third, when I search on: "Marshal de Vieuville" OR "Lord of Gordes", I get "Bertrand de Simiane, Lord of Gordes" for that time period - and other names hundreds of years before that - in google books and google, most coming from google books.
- I find nothing in archive.org for that search. And nothing for "Marshal de Vieuville".–CaroleHenson (talk) 21:25, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
- I do know someone of the name Vieuville in this time period, but they were Robert de La Vieuville the governor of Mézières and lieutenant-general of the Rethelois. sovietblobfish (talk) 21:36, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
- Okay.
- Next, I am searching for the events around this particular assisignation involving Guise, Parthenay, Viète, and Lord of Godes (complicated a smidge by Poltrot killing Claude, Duke of Guise)–CaroleHenson (talk) 21:38, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
- Nicola Sutherland wrote an article specifically on the assassination, that I used when I was writing the Assassination of the Duke of Guise (1563) article, that might be worth a look.
- Alternatively, Durot's biography of the duke of Guise is quite extensive, that might also bear fruit. sovietblobfish (talk) 21:43, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
- Next, I am searching for the events around this particular assisignation involving Guise, Parthenay, Viète, and Lord of Godes (complicated a smidge by Poltrot killing Claude, Duke of Guise)–CaroleHenson (talk) 21:38, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
- Okay, thanks, and I found a book about the French Wars of Religion here, that mentions marshal Monmorency... and, there's the memoirs book that Viète wrote. I'm going to focus on the key facts that I can find and rewrite that section, whether or not a marshal shows up.–CaroleHenson (talk) 21:47, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
- I just realized, this could become so much easier by looking at your article. Why reinvent the wheel?–CaroleHenson (talk) 21:51, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
- I have found this in Jean Bouhier, Traité de la dissolution
- "Pendant ce tems Bouchehnye étoit auprès du Maréchal de la Vieuville , enfa Maifon de Duretal , tâchant à l'engagera prendre une connoifTance amiable de cette afraire entre le Sr. DuPont, & fa Femme, efpérant qu'il entendroit cette Dame,6c qu'elle lui feroit..."
- I suspect what we are dealing with here is an archaic spelling of Vielleville's name sovietblobfish (talk) 21:52, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
- I am confident on this, both because I know there is no Marshal Vieuville, and because this says "Maifon de Duretal"
- Duretal was Vielleville's residence (he was comte de Durtal), indeed its where he died. sovietblobfish (talk) 21:56, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
- Okay, great, mystery is solved. That makes a lot of sense.
- I am still going to work on rewriting that section - and your article is a good place to start. You did a really nice job on that! And, then work on the Parthenay part of the story.
- I have been so over my head with this article, this is not my niche at all, but it's also been pretty interesting.–CaroleHenson (talk) 22:31, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
- I'm glad you like the article, it was the second one I ever created.
- I must confess I have a fairly low opinion of it these days, I've learned a lot about how to put an article together since then. (Not to mention I have access to around 60 more books than I did back then)
- Anyway, best of luck with Jean V, I'm glad to hear you've been finding your stay in this area of history interesting :) sovietblobfish (talk) 22:39, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
- I have been so over my head with this article, this is not my niche at all, but it's also been pretty interesting.–CaroleHenson (talk) 22:31, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks so much. Jealous about the 60 books.–CaroleHenson (talk) 02:11, 3 July 2023 (UTC)