Talk:Jelena Lazarević/Archive 1

Archive 1

Adulteress?

"A svijet je tada govorio da su se Sandalj i Jelena ljubili odavna, još dok je bio živ njezin muž Đurađ" [According to some rumors Sandalj and Jelena were inlove for long time, even while her husband Djuradj was still alive] link

This is published in novel "Obitelj vojvode Hrvoja" [Family of Duke Hrvoje]. Are there any scholarly sources for such claim?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 15:36, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

"Петнаест година пре брака и пуне двадесет четири године у браку војвода Сандаљ је осећао неутољену страст према мени" [Fifteen years before marriage and full 24 years after we married duke Sandalj felt unsatisfied passion toward me] says another novel, "Gospođa moli za častan mir" written by Mira Milojković.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 00:34, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

There are sources that Sandalj Hranic attacked Zeta and captured Budva in 1386. After that event Balša II and Sandalj were enemies. In "Istorija srednjovekovne bosanske države" Sima Ćirković says that in that period Jelena in her court in Ulcinj prepared herself to go to Dubrovnik to meet Sandalj. (а у један мах се спремала Јелена, кНи кнеза Лазара и жена "Бур^ева, да из Улциња дсфе у Дубровник како би се састала са Сандаљем"

If she indeed met Sandalj in Dubrovnik in 1386 that corresponds with above text that he loved her 15 years before they were married in 1411. Are there any speculations about him being biological father of Balša III? --Antidiskriminator (talk) 00:52, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

Није познато да ли се Сандаљ због ње раставио од прве жене. Али, чињеница је да се одмах по одласку Катарине оженио Јеленом. Има нешто недокучиво у односима војводе и Балшића удовице.... Сандаљ је вазда био пажљив и дарежљив према Јелени. (It is unknown if Sandalj divorced his wife because of Jelena. Still, its a fact that immediately after Katarina left he married Jelena. There is something mysterious in relations between duke and Balsa's widow) - says Momcilo Spremic--Antidiskriminator (talk) 01:19, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

Translation of 'Blagovrjerna'

I was uncertain how to translate Serbian word 'Blagovjerna' to English language. If I am not wrong, it is a title in Eastern Orthodox Christianity which is given to people who are saints or to potential saints. According to Serbian-English theological dictionary it maybe can be translated as pious or devout. I left it as 'Blagovjerna' because I used GBS and noticed there are English sources who use word blagoverni so I guess it is not a mistake. Any thoughts.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:16, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Jelena Balšić/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Khazar2 (talk · contribs) 18:21, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

I'll be glad to take this review. Initial comments to follow in the next 1-3 days. Thanks in advance for your work on this one! -- Khazar2 (talk) 18:21, 25 April 2013

Three early comments, sorry that I got sidetrakced in the middle of this one. Will finish later tonight/tomorrow:

• "They had one child, a son Balša III who was born in 1387" -- appears to be a repeat of information in the previous section Y
• " the Venetian dodge" -- should this be "doge"? Y
• "In front of Venetians Balša III, based on Jelena's instructions, protected the ancient rights of the Serbian church and the Zetan Metropolitan bishop appointed by the Patriarchate of Peć." -- I'm not sure what this means--was he physically standing in front of some Venetians? Or is the idea something like "on the Venetian front, Balsa..." -- Khazar2 (talk) 22:31, 25 April 2013 (UTC) Y

More:

• "by marrying his sister Jelena" -- is the "his" here Sigismund or Stefan's? I'm guessing Stefan's. Y
• "This marriage had important political consequences because Hranić" -- for clarity, it would be best to refer to him consistently as Sandlj or Hranic, rather than alternating.Y
• "Sandalj spoiled the relations with Hrvoje" -- spoiled whose relations? His own, I'm guessing?Y

Two concerns

On first pass, this article appears well researched and well sourced. The two biggest concerns I have about this article so far are copyediting and context. It's very difficult going for the non-expert reader, and needs work on both respects to meet criterion 1a (clarity and correctness). I've done some copyediting as I went, but it's clear that more is needed, to a degree that I think falls outside the scope of a standard review. I'm able to fix some basic spelling, punctuation, and preposition errors, but some sentences I've had more trouble untangling, like :

• "The purpose of her endowment was not only to be her crypt but to serve as the spiritual center which would take care about the historical orientation of the Serbian culture based on the Byzantine Orthodox spirituality in last period"Y

or

• "Jelena wrote her will on 25 November 1442 which shows that she had her own library and that in 1441 based on her instructions her chancellor Doberko ordered a book covers made of silver and decorated with image of Jesus from a goldsmith from Kotor named Andrija Izat"Y

The article assumes a high degree of specialized knowledge from its reader, and would be clearer at times with a bit of context.

• Is it possible to work in a few sentences of the political background of Jelena's time early in the article? I'm not saying that a standalone background section is needed, but it would be helpful to add sentences here and there like "This was a time when the Venetians were on the rise, and had come into repeated armed conflict with the Serbians." (This isn't necessarily true, just an example.)
• "Battle of Tripolje" -- can you explain what this battle was? It doesn't seem to be with the Venetians per its article.Y
• " emperor Sigismund" -- would be okay to write "Holy Roman Emperor Sigismund" here for greater context?Y
• "This seriously weakened the position of Hrvoje whose niece Katarina was Sandalj's second wife" -- who are Hrvoje and Sandalj? Again, you might add a minor contextual phrase to the name of each when first introducing them.Y
• "Koja Zaharia" -- perhaps write "Albanian nobleman Koja Zaharia" or a similar contextual phrase Y
• "That way Jelena confirms her loyalty to the tradition of the Nemanjić dynasty and her father Prince Lazar in the period when she was able to make a political choice between Islam and militant Catholicism." -- this is the first time Islam is even mentioned in the article--can you give more context about what the context of this choice was?

Etc.

I'm going to put this one on hold for seven days for these concerns to be addressed. If you're not comfortable doing the copyediting yourself, you might consider asking at WP:GOCE for a copyedit; the article appears to need a thorough check. Hope these comments help, and thanks again for your work. The contribution is very much appreciated! -- Khazar2 (talk) 15:41, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for your review. I requested ce at GOCE and I will try to address the issues you mentioned. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 16:30, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

Khazar2, I intend to deal with the issues you raised one by one and mark them with tick sign. If you think I did not actually resolve some of them please let me know. Can you prolong on hold status from 7 to 14 days because I will be travelling a lot during next week so I am uncertain how much time I will be able to dedicate to improvement of this article?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 10:46, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Holding another week would be no problem. Very sorry for my slow response! I managed to miss this one in following the conversation below. -- Khazar2 (talk) 03:49, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

Some copy-editing

Antidiskriminator, I made a few copy-editing changes and tried to improve the clarity of some of the prose. However, since I know just about nothing about this topic, I may have accidentally introduced some factual errors. Take a look at my changes; if you don't think it says what you think it should say, just bring it up on the GA review page and I'll try to help you make it say what it should say. Between my knowledge of the English language and your knowledge of Serbian history, I think we can make this work. AmericanLemming (talk) 23:42, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, AmericanLemming, for volunteering on this one--it's a big help! -- Khazar2 (talk) 00:33, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks to both of you. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 10:09, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Some comments

As Khazar2 said, I think some context would help the non-expert reader get more out of the article. These are some comments I have after reading through the article.

• She "significantly influenced the way" her husbands and son governed their realms. How?

• "She was also known as a writer." I think it would help if you were to mention how important she was as a writer. Is she considered to be one of the most important figures in medieval Serbian literature?

• "Jelena traveled to Dubrovnik." Why? Was her husband fighting there, or was she trying to get out of harm's way? Y

• "Jelena was firmly opposed to the pro-Venetian strategy of Durad II." Was it that he was pro-Venetian, or did he just want to co-operate with them so he didn't have to fight them?

• "Jelena had a significant influence on the way Balsa III governed Zeta." How? It seems that she encouraged him to fight the Venetians rather than negotiate with them, but I think it would be clearer if you said that.

• "This made Jelena's position very difficult." Why? — Preceding unsigned comment added by AmericanLemming (talk • contribs) 02:31, 29 April 2013 (UTC) Y

• "Jelena traveled back to Zeta through Dubrovnik where she received 100 ducats worth of presents." Did she receive the presents in Zeta or Dubrovnik, and why did them give them to her? Because she had negotiated the peace treaty with the Venetians?

• "left a deposit in Dubrovnik for the child they would eventually have." What kind of deposit? With whom did he leave it?Y

• "In September 1435 Jelena asked the Ragusans to allow her" Were the Ragusans in control of Dubrovnik, or did they just have influence there?

• In such changed circumstances" What changed circumstances? Because her husband was dead? — Preceding unsigned comment added by AmericanLemming (talk • contribs) 02:10, 29 April 2013 (UTC) Y

• "lack of pope's approval" I presume you mean the Roman Catholic pope?Y

• "was praised as an extraordinary women" Who was she praised by? Her contemporaries? Later Serbian historians? Also, I guess I'm a little uncomfortable with the word "extraordinary." Could you maybe get a citation for this?

• "her writing was highly evaluated" By whom? Contemporaries? Later scholars?

Other comments: These aren't necessary to get the article to GA status (or at least I don't think they are), but are just some ideas for further improving the article if and when you want to do that.

• Why did she marry Durad II? Y
• Why did she marry Sandalj? To protect her son? Y

AmericanLemming (talk) 02:07, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

AmericanLemming, I intend to deal with the issues you raised one by one and mark them with tick sign. If you think I did not actually resolve some of them please let me know.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 10:47, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

I've taken a look at what you've done so far, and I believe that your changes make the article a lot easier for the non-expert reader to understand. Keep up the good work! AmericanLemming (talk) 05:54, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. You asked very good questions which really helped improvement of the article.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 14:43, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

And thanks to both of you for your work on this--I'll take another pass tonight or tomorrow and see if anything's left! -- Khazar2 (talk) 15:29, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

Checklist

Rate	Attribute	Review Comment
1. Well-written:
	1a. the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct.
	1b. it complies with the Manual of Style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation.
2. Verifiable with no original research:
	2a. it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline.
	2b. reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose).	Since the majority of the sources are non-English, I'm not as certain as I would normally be about the reliability of sources. However, I see no issues on an initial look, and the subject matter does not seem controversial.
	2c. it contains no original research.
3. Broad in its coverage:
	3a. it addresses the main aspects of the topic.
	3b. it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style).
	4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each.
	5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.
6. Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio:
	6a. media are tagged with their copyright statuses, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content.
	6b. media are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions.
	7. Overall assessment.	Pass as GA

Née Lazarević?

I am somewhat uneasy about the "née Lazarević" bit in the lead sentence. Was Lazarević not her patronymic rather than family name? The format implies that Lazarević was a surname she lost/renounced upon marriage, as if the subject of the article was a 20th/21st-century Serbian woman rather than someone who lived centuries before family names became standardized. Surtsicna (talk) 22:51, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

Interesting observation. Many sources refer to her as "Jelena Lazarević", as if Lazarevic was her last name. Taking in consideration that Lazarević was a noble family, I believe that all of its female members would use Lazarevic as their family name until their marriage. Hereditary family names were not standardized in late medieval period, except in case of aristocracy, such as Jelena. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 23:50, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

References to "Jelena Lazarević" do not necessarily indicate that Lazarević was her family name. If I am not mistaken, the Lazarević dynasty ended with Lazar's children, so all female members of the dynasty would have borne the name Lazarević as patronymic anyway. Anastasia Nikolaevna is commonly referred to as such even though her family name was not Nikolaevna; similarly, Jóhanna Sigurðardóttir's family name is not Sigurðardóttir. The common name of Jelena's nephew/grandson-in-law, Stjepan Vukčić Kosača, includes all three parts: the given name, the patronymic and the family name. What I suggest is simply removing the "née" and leaving Lazarević as one of two alternative names.

You've also got me thinking about how common "Jelena Lazarević" might be. European noblewomen are normally referred to in English by their maiden names, or names that indicate the family into which they were born. South Slavic noblewomen, at least those hailing from Croatia and Bosnia, fall under this rule. Is Jelena an exception? Surtsicna (talk) 00:45, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for your insightful comments. I don't object simply removing the "née" and leaving Lazarević as one of two alternative names.

Regarding the title of the article, I was aware that many different family names are used in her case in sources. Sr.wiki uses Jelena Lazarević Balšić Hranić while sh.wiki uses Jelena Balšić Hranić and bs.wiki uses Jelena Lazarević. I opted for Balšić because I found it most common in sources. That is not suprisingly because while she was Balšić she had most important historical role when she basically governed governing her estate and even waging a war. Such role was not common for medieval noble women. If you think that this article should be renamed, I am willing to hear your arguments which are better to be presented within separate discussion section, if you don't mind. All the best and thanks again.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 08:26, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

Her significance to the Balšić family notwithstanding, I would think that the Lazarević name should be more prominent given that the family into which she was born by far outranked both families into which she married. Then there is the issue of her namesake granddaughter, another Jelena Balšić; I remember having to remove a link to Jelena Balšić because the woman mentioned was this Jelena's granddaughter. If "Jelena Balšić" is the most common form in English, however, that is important to consider. Surtsicna (talk) 10:48, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

I remember that I searched trough the sources at time when I created this article and found out that Balsic had significant advantage. I now quickly searched GoogleBooks on English and found out that Balsic still has significant advantage. I don't mind going into more detailed analysis if you don't agree with current title. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:06, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

If you have the time, I would be very much interested in reading your analysis. I wonder how that compares to the women of Croatia and/or Bosnia, i.e. if there is a general disparity in this regard between the women of Serbia and Croatia/Bosnia. Surtsicna (talk) 23:17, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

I don't have much time lately. Therfore I will start analysing this issue on my userpage and move it here after I am finished. If I forget about it or don't come back here until the end of August please feel free to remind me. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 07:56, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Hi Surtsicna. I began analyzing the issue on my userpage. Here is the link. I can't think any more arguments for Balšić vs Lazarević. I concluded that much more English language sources refer to her as Balšić, that awards are named Jelena Balšić, not Lazarević and that one literary work is titled Balšić, none Lazarević. What do you think?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:29, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for the survey! The results are very intriguing. Many of the "Jelena Balšić" hits refer to this woman's granddaughter - and happen to originate from Croatia and Bosnia. Notably, John Van Antwerp Fine also refers to this Jelena's granddaughter when he mentions a "Jelena Balšić". Unfortunatly, I cannot work out under what name he lists the grandmother, but it is safe to assume he makes a distinction between the two women. The "Jelena Lazarević" hits are even more problematic. Among the notable historians who use "Jelena Lazarević" (and besides those you already named in your survey), I recognize bs:Pejo Ćošković. It is possible that Montenegrin (and perhaps Serbian?) sources want to emphasize Jelena's connection to the Balšić family, while Croatian and Bosnian authors' (which tend use "maiden names" anyway) have no such inclinations. Surtsicna (talk) 22:13, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

Fine referred to her simply as Helen, as I wrote in the linked analysis. Sometimes he added (Jelena) in brackets, after Helen. Thanks for bringing this question here because I have just discovered that streets in several towns in Montenegro in Serbia are named against Jelena. All in Balšić version, as far as I can see. In Podgorica it is Ulica Jelene Balšić while in Bar there is a street Ulica kraljice Jelene Balšić, in Zemun it is Jelene Balšić, ... I also discovered there is a monument in Kruševac which name is reported to be a monument of Jelena Balšić (link). --Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:54, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

Fine probably attributes a last name to her in the index of the book, as he does with her granddaughter. A certain "Jelena Lazarević" is apparently mentioned here. There is no doubt she is popularly called Jelena Balšić in Serbia and Montenegro. Unfortunatly, that name causes some ambiguity problems, as her granddaughter is virtually never called Jelena Kosača (and even if she were, that would still be ambiguous since the Kosača name can also be attributed to the grandmother). I suppose we will have to make do and improvise when such situations arise. Surtsicna (talk) 11:45, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Very interesting. Both were Balšić and Kosača. If granddaughter was notable enough for her own article the ambiguity will be a problem. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 15:01, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

It has been problematic already.[1][2] People see that [[Jelena Balšić]] results in a blue link, and just go for it. And that reminds me, I should probably see which articles currently link here. Surtsicna (talk) 21:07, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Yes, there are (or were up to now) still articles that link to the wrong Jelena Balšić. I've fixed two. One in List of Bosnian consorts and one in Hersekzade Ahmed Pasha, where someone linked to both Jelena Balšić and Jelena Lazarević (thinking of different women). There might be more. Surtsicna (talk) 21:24, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Image

This image includes Jelena with dark hair holding a sceptre standing next to Milica. Maybe crop it and include it in the infobox?--Zoupan 00:14, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

I think that the resolution is not good enough. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 15:11, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

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