Talk:Jeremy Ben-Ami

Removal of {{cn}} tag by User:Malik Shabazz

In the edit summary of an ironically pointy edit,[1] User: Malik Shabazz removed the {{cn}} from a clearly contentions unsupported claim. Perhaps he or another editor would care to elaborate. Thanks, --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 00:44, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps you would care to elaborate on why you think we need to cite that the sky is blue? — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 00:47, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

are you really saying nobody reasonable is of the opinion that J Street is not "pro-Israel" just like nobody reasonable is of the opinion that the sky is not blue? --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 00:49, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Are you really saying you want a source that says they're pro-Israel? — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 00:50, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Yes, and also some sort of proof that it's their main descriptor, and not "pro-peace" or something to that effect.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 00:53, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Scare quotes around pro-Israel

Regarding reverts of the "pro-Israel" scare quotes, maybe it is possible to stop before the dreaded wp:3rr and have a discussion.

Here are my arguments against inserting the quotation marks.

• Using scare quotes is terrible encyclopedia style because it is over-the-top slangy.
• It is also bad style because the meaning is very unclear. Writing a "pro-Israel" organization means something like a so-called pro-Israel organization, as if there were such a thing. (Similarly, try parsing a "homeopathic" remedy.) My guess is that this was not the intent.
• Changing Irish singer and musician in Bono's biography to Irish singer and "musician" would violate BLP. I think this is the same. Ben-Ami founded and runs a pro-Israel advocacy group, that is what makes him notable. If you want to claim that what Bono does isn't really music, or what Ben-Ami does is not really pro-Israel advocacy, there are ways to express it in the context of an encyclopedia article. They involve sourcing (you need some, especially if it is a BLP issue) and placement (not in the lede). And they do not use scare quotes.

That is my two cents worth. Pro-quote people (I will avoid saying "pro-quote" people) people can weigh in. M.boli (talk) 20:03, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Well they are self-proclaimed "pro-Israel," and that should be indicated, not as fact but as self-proclaimed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tallicfan20 (talk • contribs) 21:04, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

There's a reliable source at the end of the sentence that calls them pro-Israel. I think monkeying around with that sentence should be considered vandalism and dealt with appropriately. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 21:17, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

And Philip Glass is a self-proclaimed composer. You can readily find a community of people who disagree that he is a composer. But there is enough attested evidence that composer is both his view and the normative view, and composer is what makes him notable, that the disagreement is elsewhere in the article, is sourced, and is not in the lede. M.boli (talk) 23:20, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

• Not a big fan of scare quotes myself either. However, I do support attribution, or better yet, describing them with the more appropriate "pro-peace" instead of "pro-Israel." The former appears to be the more favored description by secondary sources then the latter.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 23:36, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Good points, Brewcrewer and Malik Shabazz. The source at the end of the sentence says that the raison d'être of J-Street is the conjunction of pro-Israel and pro-peace, a niche which was believed to be insufficiently attested. So how about this:

Jeremy Ben-Ami is executive director of J Street, a pro-Israel, pro-peace organization...

• It is an accurate description of how both reliable sources and the organization itself describe J-Street's function.
• People who are accustomed to making distinctions among flavors of pro-Israelness will have the information they need. (I think this meets Tallicfan20's point that some pro-Israel people are unwilling to recognize J-Street as such. Some non-pro-Israel people may make a similar distinction.)
• It eliminates self-proclaimed, which may have been inserted in good faith, but as a matter of language style reads as gratuitous snidery.

Are people agreeable? Should I edit this in? M.boli (talk) 08:55, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

No objection having been registered, and since I believe that it grows out of all the discussant's ideas, I have edited that language into the article. If you have a mind to object or to change it please discuss it here first. M.boli (talk) 05:15, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

leftist vs. liberal

J-street leftist organization, not liberal 2603:6011:AF03:9C1D:E8A0:C57F:C68A:F0FD (talk) 00:30, 16 March 2023 (UTC)