Talk:Jewish Neo-Aramaic dialect of Urmia

Requested move

• I am the original author of this page, I called it Lishan Didan. It was moved to Lishan Didan language. However, as the word lishan means language the new name is not a good one. I agree with the policy that articles about individual languages should generally be titled * language, but I do not agree that this should be blanket policy, and do not agree with in this case. --Gareth Hughes 22:25, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• I Support this move. Double negatives, even made out of ignorance are annoying. Gateman1997 00:41, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Support Ignorant redundancy should be avoided. Wood Thrush 02:41, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)
• Support as well. This isn't the only instance of what I see as ignorance-promoting or POV-pushing blanket article moving that's been going on, however, wrt Jewish languages articles. See Talk:Jewish languages for more. Tomer ^TALK 05:37, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)

This article has been renamed after the result of a move request. violet/riga (t) 10:56, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

Recent Developments?

Hasn't there been some interesting developments wrt Lishan Didan recently? I'm thinking particularly of the "rock" music group Nash Didan:

• [1]
• [2]
• [3] interesting article

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 149.8.226.148 (talk • contribs) 22:16, 15 December 2006.

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Requested move 24 April 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved Seems to be a consensus after the proposed target was changed. User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 01:54, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

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Lishán Didán → Jewish Neo-Aramaic dialect of Urmia – The name "Lishán Didán" is not much used in English language sources outside of Wikipedia, as you can tell by the first two Google Scholar results being scraped from our website.[4] There are two books published on this dialect (spoken in Urmia and nearby areas of Iranian Azerbaijan as well as adjoining areas of modern-day Turkey (Baskale and Gawar):

• Khan, Geoffrey (2015). The Jewish Neo-Aramaic Dialect of Urmi. Gorgias Press. ISBN 978-1-59333-425-3.
• Garbell, Irene (1965). The Jewish Neo-Aramaic Dialect of Persian Azerbaijan: Linguistic Analysis and Folkloristic Texts. Walter de Gruyter. ISBN 978-3-11-087799-1.

I prefer "Urmia" because the geographical area of this dialect is not coterminus with Iranian Azerbaijan and it's consistent with Urmia Christian Neo-Aramaic, but I would also support Iranian Azerbaijan Jewish Neo-Aramaic as well. (t · c) buidhe 15:03, 24 April 2021 (UTC) —Relisted. P.I. Ellsworth  ed. ^put'r there 16:57, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

Note: target title changed from Urmia Jewish Neo-Aramaic by the nom at 03:08 on 4 May 2021. Hence the relisting. P.I. Ellsworth  ed. ^put'r there 16:57, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

• Glottolog has it under the current title ([5]). ELP has it under "Jewish Azerbaijani Neo-Aramaic" ([6]). Bernard Spolsky in The Languages of the Jews uses Lishan Didan ([7]). Moreover, Gorgias has published a book entitled Lishan Didan, Targum Didan: Translation Language in a Neo-Aramaic Targum Tradition by Margo Rees ([8]). The Iranica uses "Jewish Urmia Neo-Aramaic" ([9]). There are hits for "Jewish Urmi Neo-Aramaic", but none for "Urmia Jewish Neo-Aramaic". I sympathetic to the arguments, but it seems that we would be substituting a title of our own creation with this particular move. A purely descriptive title would be something like "Jewish Neo-Aramaic dialect of __". Srnec (talk) 18:04, 24 April 2021 (UTC)
  • The book Lishan Didan, Targum Didan: Translation Language in a Neo-Aramaic Targum Tradition is about "a literary form of the Neo-Aramaic spoken by the Jews of the Rewanduz/Arbel region"—a completely different dialect of neo-Aramaic from a different area. That shows why the current name is not WP:Precise. I can't see why "Jewish Neo-Aramaic dialect of [location]" is functionally different that "[location] Jewish Neo-Aramaic", other than the latter name being somewhat more WP:Concise. I would use "Urmia" as opposed to "Urmi" because the former name appears to be the common name of the city, and is the title of the Wikipedia article Urmia, for WP:Recognizability and WP:Consistency. (t · c) buidhe 19:05, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
    • Because "Jewish Neo-Aramaic dialect of Urmia" is clearly descriptive, while "Urmia Jewish Neo-Aramaic" looks like a name when it's not. Srnec (talk) 01:13, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

      If you think so then the best solution is a group nomination of all the NENA dialects that are "[location] [religion] Neo-Aramaic" (most of them currently) to the other format. Either way, it should be consistent. (t · c) buidhe 01:54, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

@Srnec: If you're right (and I'm not saying you're wrong) the following articles would need to be moved:

Jewish dialects

• Barzani Jewish Neo-Aramaic
• Betanure Jewish Neo-Aramaic
• Challa Jewish Neo-Aramaic
• Koy Sanjaq Jewish Neo-Aramaic

Christian dialects

• Barwar Christian Neo-Aramaic
• Bohtan Neo-Aramaic
• Hertevin dialect
• Qaraqosh Neo-Aramaic
• Urmia Christian Neo-Aramaic

There's also Inter-Zab Jewish Neo-Aramaic and Trans-Zab Jewish Neo-Aramaic (nominated to be renamed from Hulaulá language) but these are dialect groups named based on exactly what they are called in RS. (t · c) buidhe 04:52, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

I'd like a second opinion. If others think this format is acceptable for a descriptive title, I'm fine with it. I do prefer it to a bunch of articles of the form "[Religion] Neo-Aramaic dialect of [location]". Another option would be "[Location] dialect of [religion] Neo-Aramaic". Srnec (talk) 23:05, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

On further investigation, I think Srnec's original proposal more closely matches what these dialects are called in reliable sources, for example there are books or other academic works (papers, chapters, etc.) on The Jewish Neo-Aramaic Dialect of Amədya, The Neo-Aramaic Dialect of Barwar, The Neo-Aramaic Dialect of Qaraqosh, The Jewish Neo-Aramaic Dialect of Sulemaniyya and Ḥalabja, The neo-Aramaic dialect of Bohtan, A grammar of Neo-Aramaic: The dialect of the Jews of Arbel, The neo-Aramaic dialect of Jilu, The Jewish Neo-Aramaic Dialect of Betanure (Province of Dihok), The Neo-Aramaic dialect of Alqosh, The Jewish Neo-Aramaic Dialect of Persian Azerbaijan: Linguistic Analysis and Folkloristic Texts, The Neo-Aramaic Dialect of the Assyrian Christians of Urmi, The Jewish Neo-Aramaic Dialect of Koy Sanjaq (Iraqi Kurdistan), The Jewish Neo-Aramaic Dialect of Challa, The syntax of Neo-Aramaic: the Jewish dialect of Zakho, "Ditransitive constructions in the Neo-Aramaic dialect of Telkepe", "The impact of Kurdish and Turkish on the Jewish Neo-Aramaic dialect of Persian Azerbaijan and the adjoining regions", "The Neo-Aramaic dialect of the Jews of Rustaqa", "A poem in the Neo-Aramaic dialect of Urmia", A grammar of the Christian Neo-Aramaic dialect of Diyana-Zariwaw. Especially linguist Geoffrey Khan but other linguists as well use this format. I guess the main question is whether to label "Jewish" or "Christian" when only one of them is spoken in a particular area. For example, should it be "Neo-Aramaic dialect of Bohtan" or "Christian Neo-Aramaic dialect of Bohtan"? (t · c) buidhe 23:27, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

That looks convincing. I'd leave off the religion if not needed. Srnec (talk) 03:06, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

• Support. Srnec (talk) 00:52, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

• Hello, I am still a little unsure of how editing on Wikipedia works so I hope this works. I am a speaker of this language and I am currently studying some Linguistics in University. I understand that while the extant literature may refer to this language using such descriptive names, I can guarantee you that none of the speakers will refer to it this way. I strongly suggest that the article should be named after what the actual speakers call this language. At the very least, some sort of disambiguation should be setup. Samsm929 (talk) 03:30, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
  • Samsm929, Hi, thanks for your contributions. On English Wikipedia, Wikipedia:Article titles policy generally favors what names are used in reliable English language sources rather than "what the actual speakers call this language" (which in any case probably wouldn't be in English). For example, one Wikipedia article is titled Spanish language, not español or castellano (what the speakers call it). (t · c) buidhe 03:43, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
    • Thank you for the response. This does make some sense. Would a redirect be possible? Like redirecting searches for lishan didan to the new page? Samsm929 (talk) 17:03, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
      • Samsm929, Yes, a redirect is automatically created when the page is moved to aid navigation. (t · c) buidhe 21:32, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.