Talk:Jian

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 29 October 2019 and 6 December 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): James Nie. Peer reviewers: Rhain11123, Yuting Cui, XueZhao Ma, Lovepreetry.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 01:14, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

page name

Why don't we move this to Jiàn? This word is not seriously used in English, so usage isn't an issue — just correctness, and "jian" without the tone mark is not fully correct Hanyu pinyin. Chameleon 22:36, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Sounds like a good idea. Fyrius 20:53, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Adding the diacritical mark does make typing in the correct name a bit difficult for most users; this is not a problem for those who are only browsing, but it will lead to an inordinate number of redirects which only the knowledgeable few will be able to fix. Redirects aren't bad, but they are messy. I'd prefer to keep most diacritical names at a non-diacritical location, however technically incorrect that may be. -- Visviva 06:05, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

And the word is used by English speaking wushu enthusiasts and martial artists, usually without the accent mark. Not a huge community, but the most likely to search the word. --Fire Star 06:10, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Image

The ballpoint picture.

I added a photograph of a jian I own. It's not the clearest image on the Web, but it's the most copyright-proof image I could think of. If you think it's not copyright-proof enough, though, perhaps we could use this hand-drawn ballpoint picture I drew of another of my own Jian; I'm sure there's no copyrights on that. Anyway, I think an image would be helpful for those that have never seen a jian and would otherwise need to picture it from this description. Fyrius 18:54, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

File:Goujian2.jpg

So now we've got this as the first image on the page. Does the Jian come in multiple varieties, or am I right when I think that this doesn't look like a Jian at all? If it's just a less common form of the Jian, I think the images should change positions (normal Jian at the top, other Jian a little further down), to avoid confusion as to what a Jian commonly looks like. Fyrius 15:04, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Replaced the new image by the old, because it had no relevance to the topic. Fyrius 17:05, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

So now the old picture has been deleted for lack of a source, and the jian article has become imageless. What are we going to do about it? Put the ballpoint sketch on it? Fyrius 10:12, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

I would think that just adding source info to the old picture would work - the deletion was by a bot looking for sourceless pics. Ergative rlt 15:20, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, it's a photograph taken by me of a sword I bought at a market. The sword itself has two Eastern (probably Chinese, its box says 'made in China') characters on the blade with an (R) above it, so I suppose that's the brand name. I can't read it, but here's a sketch of what they look like. So I'm afraid we'll need someone who can read Chinese to determine the brand.

I don't think it's a matter of the brand - it's that when the image was uploaded no information was given to what the image's source was. Looking at images in other articles it seems that just placing in the Source field "Photo taken by me of my property on this date" or something similar would do. Then again, I've never uploaded images, so I'd also send a note to an admin. Ergative rlt 21:57, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, the brand is quite literally the source, but I guess you're right. I'll see if I can find the right code to indicate this. Fyrius 10:32, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

It's done. With some help I found the right licensing code, so now it should be okay to re-upload it. Fyrius 19:13, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Here's my own pictures of my 2 Jian, and was wondering if you might prefer this one:

My 2 Jian

]

Nice.

The background is less distracting than the one in my photo (= the present one), and there's more room between the swords and the edges of the picture. That's good. On the other hand, the lighting isn't as clear. It seems a bit dark, which makes the details somewhat hard to make out.

I don't know which one is most suitable. Does anyone else have a preference? Fyrius (talk) 21:44, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

disambig Jian?

The entirety of the article is on the chinese sword 劍 jian except for two sentences about a garden master and a novel. It is unsure if these two other meanings are about the same usage of the character 劍. There are 80+ other chinese characters that pronounce as jian. If these two other meanings are unrelated except for their sound, then they should be pulled out of the article into a disambig page. Kowloonese 00:56, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

I have never heard "jian4" 劍 also means a garden master. I suspect the person who wrote about the garden master meant 监 "jian1" as in "guard" or "master". I'm deleting that line. According to my dictionary of classical chinese, 劍 jian4 can mean: (1)b ancient chinese weapon, for carrying when travelling. Two-edged, with spine, short handle. (2) the art of swordsmanship, (3) to kill with a sword, (4) to carry under one's arm. --Sumple 10:21, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Here are some uses from the unihan search database:

拔劍 ba2jian4 bat6 gim3 to draw a sword; to whip out a a sword

寶劍 bao3 jian4 bou2 gim3 a double-edged sword

刀光劍影 daoguang-jian4ying3 dou1 gwong1 gim3 ying2 engaged in hot battle; a heated combat (usually between individual swordsmen)

短劍 duan3 jian4 dyun2 gim3 dagger

掛劍 gua4jian4 gwa3 gim3 to hang the precious sword on its admirer's grave--a last gift to show one's memory of the deceased

慧劍 hui4jian4 wai6 gim3 (in Buddhism) the sword of wisdom which cuts away illusion

慧劍斬情絲 hui4jian4 zhan3 qing2si wai6 gim3 jaam2 ching4 si1 to cut the thread of carnal love with the sword of wisdom

劍 jian4 gim3 (double-edged) sword

劍術 jian4 shu4 gim3 seut6 fencing

劍拔弩張 jian4ba2-nu3zhang gim3 bat6 nou5 jeung1 (literally) with swords unsheathed and bows drawn--ready to; fight; ready to destroy each other (said of tense international situation)

劍及履及 jian4ji2-lyu3 ji2 to perform a task with full vigor and urgency

劍客 jian4ke4 gim3 haak3 a swordsman; a fencing master

劍蘭 jian4lan2 gim3 laan4 gladiolus

劍橋 Jian4qiao2 gim3 kiu4 Cambridge, England

劍俠 jian4xia2 a wandering swordsman (in search of adventures); a knighterrant

刻舟求劍 ke4 zhou qiu2 jian4 to be stubbornly unimaginative; a very stupid way of doing things

口蜜腹劍 kou3mi4-fu4jian4 hau2 mat6 fuk1 gim3 sweet words but a wicked heart; to flatter another while ready to plant a sword in his back

弩張劍拔 nu3zhang-jian4ba2 nou5 jeung1 gim3 bat6 (literally) with bows drawn and swords unsheathed--War is likely to start at any moment

佩劍 pei4jian4 pui3 gim3 to wear a sword at the waist; a sword one carries

太極劍 tai4 ji2 jian4 taai3 gik6 gim3 a kind of traditional Chinese sword-play

--Fire Star 06:15, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

metric - english

can someone mention the measurements in in english measurements? not all of us know metric :) --Phil 16:38, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

makes no sense. can't expect other ppl to cater to you if you close yourself off to standard international units.

How about giving metric *and* non-metric measurements? Rather obvious, isn't it? ;) Fyrius 18:11, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

There you go. I'm not sure if weight is usually measured in pounds in non-metric systems, but I think it'll do. Fyrius 18:57, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

I see I made some mistakes with the inches and feet measurements, putting the decimal symbol of the pounds three positions back. ^_^;; Mea culpa, I'm not used to the system. Fyrius 18:30, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Redundant information

The extra information on tassels use was moved to the Use section as it was about use, as opposed to construction; reinserting this into the Parts section led to directly redundant material (please read comments). Also, I toned down the wording as the additions assumed the truth of one particular interpretation of the tassel's function (an interpretation that is by no means unanimous) and made unjustifiably broad statements about xingyi and Yang taiji. Ergative rlt 18:36, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Removed "Iron" as a reference material in the evolution of the Jian. Any Iron that could be considered an advance over Chinese bronze of the Qin/Han period was carbon enhanced, therefor Steel. Dainas 02:20, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Accuracy/Sources in the "Use" section

The flexbility of the blade also makes it a poor defensive tool against heavier weapons because it is virtually impossible to effectively block with it: blocking with the flat of the blade as one would normally do with a sword would merely allow a weapon to bend it and pass through while blocking with the edge of the sword would severely damage the blade. This flexibility also makes it difficult to handle offensively since an attack must compensate for any fluctuations in the blade from sudden movements. Despite these flaws, in the hands of an extremely agile practitioner, the jian makes for an extremely effective weapon, allowing for a wide variety of attacks, including swipes as well as stabs. This sets it apart from its European counterpart, the rapier, which is primarily only used for stabbing and has a much more limited capability.

Are there sources for the above? I own a modern jian based upon historical models; Functional jian are not "flexible" in the way that jian shown in movies such as Crouching Tiger often are. Similarly, jian that are "whippy" such as those often used in wushu or even purchasable for lightweight training tools for jian forms in e.g. taijiquan are not the same as historical quality weapons. While the above is correct in that blocking with an edge is undesirable, a jian doesn't just bend over or out of the way. They are quite sturdy. What is meant by "flexibility" in the quoted passage?

The forms I have studied show blocking on the thickest part of the blade, which is near to the guard. A dao (sword) blow, as powerful as it is is not going to flex a realistic jian "out of the way". A good sword is of course somewhat flexible, but for the purposes of resilience. This is the purpose of the inserted edge or differential hardening techniques. The edge is hard enough to stay relatively sharpened, while the spine is resilient enough to accept blows without being overly fragile.

Further, "having to compensate for any fluctuations in the blade ..." Historically accurate jian do not 'wobble' or whip about when you are swinging them, even with considerable (read: cutting) force. If they did, it seems like they would be almost useless as weapons. They can experience fluctuation when cutting a reasonably thick or hard target, but so does any sword. Jian can cut as well as dao... See Google video search for "GRTC" to show examples of cutting of bamboo and soaked mats with both jian and dao. Cutting with my own jian has resonance vibration if the cut is off the ideal line, but the jian does not get remotely out of control.

With respect to "swipes as well as stabs" -- these are not particularly academic terms. More appropriate would be "cuts as well as thrusts", as this keeps with general sword nomenclature. I would also like to see evidence of the rapier as the "counterpart" to the jian. Given that the jian is closer in looks and length to a "typical" European medieval two edged sword than to a rapier.

Overall, perhaps the "Use" section needs expanding and differentiating between functional and historical variants of the weapon, plus a section for other modern variations used in wushu demonstrations or as non-functional 'sword placeholders' for learning martial arts forms. I think it would be well to be careful of making assumptions based upon what is seen in film, what is taught in some martial arts schools, and what is available as "Genuine Chinese Swords" in marketplaces vs what is historically observed.

For an example reference, see "Chinese Swordsmanship, the Yang Family Taiji Jian Tradition" by Scott M Rodell.

Dan Fleet 05:00, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Although I concur with regards to the issue of jian not being whippy of flexible in traditional design I have to take slight disagreement with the comment that jian could cut as well as dao. The jian and the dao are different tools and perform different jobs. The hilt-concentrated weight, taper and sharp point, along with differential sharpening which was a common (though not universal) feature of the jian made it best for stabbing. The tip-concentrated weight and curve of the dao made it best for chopping. Although both blades can be seen as having cutting as a secondary function I feel from both personal experience and theoretical knowlege that the dao is slightly better for cutting than the jian. Simonm223 (talk) 15:48, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Another feature of the jian is that it is (was) used a lot for drawing cuts, making contact with the opponent and drawing backwards (or sometimes pushing forwards) for a slice similar to the way a scalpel slices, to cut tendons, veins, etc. just below the surface of joints. Of course I don't have a source for this yet, unfortunately, it was oral instruction in sword class... ;-) --Bradeos Graphon Βραδέως Γράφων (talk) 14:40, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Drawing cuts are used with both Jian and Dao. Although I also suffer from the preponderance of the oral tradition in Chinese sword tradition I can confirm this statement. Simonm223 (talk) 17:22, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Renaming article

I propose we rename this article Jian {sword} and have other uses of the (common) Chinese morpheme jian, including this one, listed on a disambiguation page. --Fire Star 火星 23:37, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

That's what Wiktionary is for. If you do this, you will find you run out of content after probably the second page. ALTON .ıl 03:36, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Sword weight

The introduction says that an average Jian is 70 cm (28 in) and 700-900g (1.5-2 lb). How could a metal sword more than 2 feet long weigh just 2 pounds? -- kenb215 talk 04:25, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Some wushu swords are very thin so that they swish when forms are done quickly. Our nickname for them is "tinfoil weapons". Traditional weapons are much heavier. --Bradeos Graphon (talk) 04:43, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Not only are these dimensions and weights correct - and for traditional swords, not wushu props - they are quite unremarkable. Swords in general weigh far less than what popular culture suggests. Ergative rlt (talk) 07:22, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. There are some da and bagua dao that are much heavier, but the weights given in this article seem about right. --Bradeos Graphon (talk) 14:11, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Again, agreed, even very large swords may weigh only 2.5-4 kgs. The average jian is not a very large sword. 1.5 - 2 lbs is within the realm of the feasable although I'd say that a functional jian of average length is more likely 2.5 lbs. Simonm223 (talk) 13:58, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Guards

I've never seen anything in any of the listed sources, or in any other source, about rear-facing guards being ceremonial and forward-facing ones being for combat blades - in fact Adam Hsu actually states the opposite. Also, note that in Rodell's Chinese Swordsmanship all of the antique swords have rear-facing guards. Ergative rlt (talk) 01:15, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

My opinion (as far as I am a swordsman) is that both rear-facing and forward-facing guards can be used for defence very well - but with difference of usage. Note: forward facing ones can be used for breaking or blocking the blade, and both are protective to user's armed hand - each one in a different manner though. 85.132.250.121 (talk) 15:46, 17 March 2010 (UTC)Saharus

Image again

While the added image looks nice, a quick look at it, its source, and those for others uploaded by the editor suggest that, while uploaded in good faith, the images may be unusable. As such, I'm reverting to the previous clearly usable image until the status of this new one can be figured out. Ergative rlt (talk) 00:30, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Information with no Citation

We need more citations, mates. Also, that removal image of the sword of goujian really hurts the nice article's historical touch. Articles and paragraphs are also lacking in massive credibility. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.193.31.155 (talk) 18:33, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Cleaning up Pop Culture

As the current pop culture list is going the way of many on Wikipedia — i.e. filled with many entries of dubious notability and relevance — I'm going to start pruning it. For something to stay, I feel that it should meet at least one, and preferably more, of the following criteria: be significant from a historical, cultural, or artistic perspective; be widely known or easily accessed; give a realistic depiction of the jian or its use; or give a good general example of how the jian is used in various forms of popular culture, as opposed to being simply an instance of such use. Something that passes: depictions of jian in the hands of Immortals. Something that fails: The Office — that a jian appears in an episode tells us nothing about the sword itself or its place in pop culture. Ergative rlt (talk) 04:29, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Order in Articles

This article seems out of order but still interestingly informative and well written. Still, things like "Parts of the jian" "Materials" and maybe even "Historical Use" seems like a poor header for the information that follows them. I suggest one of us reorder them and rename them to fit the article's needs. This article also needs a massive load of citations but other than that the article still looks nice, in a sense that it is appealing to the eyes. I suggest we also take examples from other similar articles like Katana or even the Japanese sword article, tho the latre is a bit of a stretch since Chinese Swords needs ridiculous reformatting and editing but we should still take note on how the articles are done and try to do the same things here.--71.193.54.222 (talk) 01:05, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Chi Xiao

Isn't the Chi Xiao a short version of the Jian (see http://www1.sinosword.com/ProductShow/?p=Han-dynasty-ancient-Jian-sword ) Mention in article. 91.182.136.18 (talk) 10:05, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Out-of-place image/link?

http://i.imgur.com/tmcOVuf.jpg

I noticed this strangely appearing at the top of the page. Its filename is "Michigan state police.gif" but it links to the AR-15 gun article, and I couldn't seem to find where it was in the wikitext to delete it. Could someone remove it if possible? Thanks. Airbag190 (talk) 01:35, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

I did a copy and paste of the article and now that odd image link has been removed. alagahd (talk) 02:46, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

But, oddly, the history of the page doesn't show my save. alagahd (talk) 02:48, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

Tassels

The reason for Jian tassels is actually pretty fraught in what passes for scholars on the subject. The most mainstream suggestions are that they were originally functional lanyards that became decorative over time or that they were decorative elements coming out of sword dance that found their way into more practical martial arts over time. Like a lot of CMA stuff much is oral tradition and will be difficult to cite to Wikipedia standards. However, a good starting place would be Kung Fu Magazine. Specifically try the September / October 2004, January / February 2005, and maybe July / August 2012 - the first two were both "sword special issues" and the third had a few good articles on sword history IIRC. My copies are mostly either lost or boxed in storage so I'll not be able to pull the precise quote - but it gives you somewhere to start anyway. Simonm223 (talk) 21:21, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the pointers. If they started as lanyards, then I would imagine there must be public domain artworks depicting them that can be displayed on Wikipedia. That's why this portrait is so useful, because it clearly shows that at least some military daos had such lanyards. So maybe it was indeed the same with jians. --Difference engine (talk) 00:49, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

Possibly, but if I understand Wikipedia an WP:RS magazine articles might be a better source than a description of a picture, which might be considered WP:OR - that said, awesome picture. Simonm223 (talk) 17:37, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Oh, certainly. Any pictures would just be for illustrative purposes, not presented as evidence in and of themselves. I hate articles about historical technologies or artifacts that don't have any appropriate pictures to illustrate them. --Difference engine (talk) 00:54, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Vietnam

The reason why I added edits related to Vietnam is because the Chinese has introduced the jian when Vietnam was under Chinese influence and if you look up Vietnamese on Google, you will notice there are similarities. SpinnerLaserz (talk) 00:58, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

As I keep telling you multiple times, if you want to create articles for Vietnamese weapons, create separate respective articles signifying the Vietnamese weapons. No one is stopping you from creating them. What I object to is that you stop inserting content and haphazardly renaming articles related to Vietnamese related weapons into articles related to Chinese weapons. SimeonManier (talk) 03:46, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

Vietnamese similarities

Seeing how Vietnamese culture was influenced by Chinese culture. I cannot find any good sources that the jian had influenced the kiem. The only sources I had ever found was these:

• http://danviet.vn/dong-tay-kim-co/kiem-viet-nam-co-gi-dac-biet-so-voi-kiem-nhat-ban-va-trung-quoc-941064.html
• http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=183
• https://www.mandarinmansion.com/article/antique-vietnamese-arms

If you are an expert in Martial arts nor Vietnamese culture, you are welcome to discuss this and find any reliable sources to support this. SpinnerLaserz (talk) 20:07, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

SpinnerLaserz, please do not use edit requests to invite participation into a discussion. An edit request is intended to be used for when you can not or should not edit an article directly, but the edit to be made is either expected to be uncontroversial or the proposed change already has a consensus from discussions already carried out. A requested edit also needs to be specific in the "Change X to Y" format, supported by specific sources for the proposed change.

I recommend you try WT:WikiProject Vietnam if you are looking for help from editors more familiar with and potentially interested in Vietnam-related topics. Best, Usedtobecool ☎️ 04:49, 16 March 2020 (UTC)

Okay, thanks. I need to end the 3 or 2 week dispute as soon as I can. SpinnerLaserz (talk) 04:58, 16 March 2020 (UTC)

"Chien" listed at Redirects for discussion

A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Chien. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 July 28#Chien until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Joseph2302 (talk) 16:00, 28 July 2020 (UTC)