Talk:Jiang Zemin

MOS debate about capitalization

@General Ization: This is just a grammar thing, but can you explain what you mean by your revert here? I say that the object in the sentence is "Hu Jintao", with the title "General Secretary" akin to "Mister". The sentence is not "Jiang was succeeded as general secretary by Hu Jintao", as Hu was already general secretary in 2002-05. Where in MOS:JOBTITLE does it support your edit? Holidayruin (talk) 05:04, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

Actually, reading it again I made a mistake in this message I wrote here. As per MOS:JOBTITLE: "When a formal title for a specific entity (or conventional translation thereof) is addressed as a title or position in and of itself, is not plural, is not preceded by a modifier (including a definite or indefinite article), and is not a reworded description." My usage in the first message should have been "succeeded as General Secretary" (it's not "succeeded as the general secretary") and "Hu was already General Secretary" (it's not "Hu was already the general secretary" or "Hu was already Chinese general secretary").

My original point still stands though, it should be " being succeeded in these roles by General Secretary Hu Jintao" in the article. Holidayruin (talk) 05:18, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

“ Jiang gradually vacated his official leadership titles from 2002 to 2005, being succeeded in these roles by general secretary Hu Jintao ... ”

@Holidayruin: In this sentence, the words "general secretary" are being used to inform the reader of Hu Jintao's job function. The proximity of the job title to the subject's name is due to this sentence's structure and context, rather than its use as a mode of address or part of the person's name. If the job title had preceded the general secretary's family name only, and his role had been previously introduced in the article, that is a case where capitalization might have been appropriate ("He was succeeded by General Secretary Hu"), though the title would generally be omitted altogether in that case. We do not use job titles as honorifics. See other examples at MOS:JOBTITLE. General Ization ^Talk 05:20, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

Also, you might consider that the sentence would mean exactly the same thing had an article been included preceding the job title: "... being succeeded in these roles by [the] general secretary Hu Jintao ...". It was only omitted because it was unnecessary in context. General Ization ^Talk 05:25, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

@General Ization: Again, I simply don't see where your point is supported by MOS:JOBTITLE. Nothing there says anything about family name or anything like that. And it is still correct to use it as a title even with the full name, as something like "President Abraham Lincoln" is still correct. I think you are saying that "General Secretary" is an appositive and thus acts as a descriptor of "Hu Jintao", but this is not a universal way of thinking in grammar and not in MOS:JOBTITLE.

Also, I'm saying the omission of "the" means it must be capitalized. That's just the rule. Holidayruin (talk) 05:32, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

I disagree, and I believe that both what I have written above and MOS:JOBTITLE explain why. But I'm not going to spend more time debating with you concerning what I consider a largely insignificant edit. General Ization ^Talk 05:38, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

It clearly doesn't but we're also clearly wasting our time. I've been on Wikipedia too long. Holidayruin (talk) 05:39, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

In case it helps, please consider the following sentence, in which the job title is being used (and capitalized) correctly in both cases per our MOS: "The conference was originally proposed by US president Jimmy Carter; President Carter suggested that it would promote understanding between the parties." But you have solved the problem neatly by removing the job title altogether. General Ization ^Talk 06:04, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

Unclear

On 19 September 2004, after the 4th Plenary Session of the 16th Central Committee, Jiang, at the age of 78, relinquished his post as chairman of the party's Central Military Commission, his last post in the party. Six months later in March 2005, Jiang resigned his last significant post, chairman of the Central Military Commission of the state, which marked the end of Jiang's political career

I don't get it. Did he announce his resignation in September, and only actually resign in March? DFlhb (talk) 16:46, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

party's Central Military Commission != state's Central Military Commission. See: Central Military Commission (China)#Members 58.176.72.209 (talk) 14:09, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

I see, thanks. DFlhb (talk) 14:20, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: History of Socialism

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 30 August 2022 and 23 December 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): SlyRedeemerJT (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by SlyRedeemerJT (talk) 16:14, 6 December 2022 (UTC)