Talk:Jimmy Chérizier

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UN Security Council testimony from Kim Ives

The original English version of Kim Ives' testimony to the Security Council can be found as well as a French translation of the text and a four-part documentary (mostly in Krèyol, but subtitled and narrated in English) called Another Vision at the site of the Brooklyn-based weekly: Haiti Liberté. Rather than comparing the G9 to the Tonton Macoutes (as the NED-financed Pierre Espérance, director of Haiti’s National Human Rights Defense Network) has done (here), the documentary suggests that "Barbecue" is the first political actor to engage in the bidonvilles since Lavallas leader Aristide. Perhaps it's all leftist propaganda, but the fact that Ives was called to testify in front of the Security Council suggests that he's likely a credible source with his decades of experience reporting on Haiti. See also press.un.org. -- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 17:05, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

Hyperlink for citation 1 no longer exists

The direct link to the Philadelphia Times article no longer exists. 35.149.30.125 (talk) 20:24, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Should we watch for the possibility of propoganda in western sources?

https://twitter.com/jasonjamesbnn/status/1769742582643572858

I understand twitter isn't a good source per say, but considering the content of the tweet and my personal experiences, I feel we should consider the possibilty western sources are putting a spin on the current haiti situation as an excuse to justify military invervention

In short, I feel we should challenge some of the "Big" sources with sources that are generally critical of western imperialism, as they would shed light on different aspects of this chaos. Vladimir Hunter (talk) 21:28, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Are you serious? Twitter is used as a source in multiple different places, especially when a government member tweets something. Also, this is a serious matter, we can’t just replace sources with other may-be biased sources. ^48JCLTalk 00:25, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Tèt Kale

The claim in the infobox that Chérizier is part of the Tèt Kale party is a bit odd, given that nobody is a member of that now-defunct party anymore... -- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 03:51, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Bruh stop making stuff up MilkAndStrawberryPutin (talk) 20:22, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Explain what you mean. Can you point me to their website? I find it odd that there is no representative from that party in the Transitional Council, don't you? -- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 00:47, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Ok you're right about the Tèt Kale party. But by definition, I think Jimmy "Barbecue" Chérizier counts as a politician MilkAndStrawberryPutin (talk) 00:54, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Politician

Is there consensus to refer to Chérizier as a politician in this article? Can anyone find a source describing him as a politician? -- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 15:07, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

He's a politician because he's involved in politics. MilkAndStrawberryPutin (talk) 20:21, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

You need a source calling him a politician to add this to the lead. Not everyone who has an influence on politics is a politician, some folks are just warlords/militia leaders or even oligarchs (Yevgeny Prigozhin for example).-- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 00:36, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

The definition of a politician on dictionary.com is a "seeker or holder of public office". He's seeking to overthrow the government which is already sourced in this article. He's seeking political power and this article describes him as a very influential political figure MilkAndStrawberryPutin (talk) 00:37, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Bruh an ip editor reverted your edit. And no one's removing the politician part of the article besides you because everyone knows I'm right MilkAndStrawberryPutin (talk) 00:39, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I see that an SPA making their first edit from Arlington, Texas agrees with your POV :) Ya'll should read WP:V.-- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 00:40, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

whats wrong with Texas? And why are you trying to search for editors personal ininformation? That's a bit sus ngl MilkAndStrawberryPutin (talk) 00:43, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

• information, sorry typo

MilkAndStrawberryPutin (talk) 00:43, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Hold on let me find a source that calls him a politician for wikipedia variability MilkAndStrawberryPutin (talk) 00:46, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

I think there needs to be a reliable source which describes him as a politician. Many people who exercise political influence or seek it are not politicians. Examples included military figures and those who bribe government officials. XabqEfdg (talk) 00:54, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Give me 2 hours. I'm busy rn, but I'm going to find a source MilkAndStrawberryPutin (talk) 00:56, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

I found a source that calls him a politician https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/10/haiti-gang-boss-kingpin-barbecue-jimmy-cherizier MilkAndStrawberryPutin (talk) 01:08, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

😂 OK. So can we remove it now? Promise, when he runs for office (for the first time ever) we can put it back... -- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 01:22, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

The article I linked literally says the word "politician" when talking about him. And it's a reliable source MilkAndStrawberryPutin (talk) 01:31, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

There's me and that ip editor, and there's you and Xab. I got 1 person on my side and you got 1 person on yours, and my side won, I found a source. How come the thousands of people reading the page didn't remove the fact he's a politician? Because it's true. MilkAndStrawberryPutin (talk) 01:34, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Also he's not going to run for office. He's trying to overthrow the government. That's how he's seeking power. There hasn't been elections in Haiti in years. MilkAndStrawberryPutin (talk) 01:38, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Look, I'm not going to spend too much time on this, because sure, the article does quote someone who says "he is a natural politician", but who then says to "make no mistake, he is an out-and-out gangster." Your article does not say that he is a politician (except in a folksy kind of way). I can give you ten more sources that also do not conclude he is a politician (and also do not include the word politician), because he's never held or run for any office. It's not a big deal. It was last year that I mentioned on this TP that he was a political actor: arguments over terminology tend to be sterile and annoying. Wikipedia usage, though, is to go with what the majority of RS write. And the majority that I've seen in three languages do not call him a politician. -- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 01:49, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

And some sources do call him a politician. No one uses other language wikipedia, English is the most popular language and the France version of this article calls him a political figure. This is my article, the reason why I created a Wikipedia account is so I can edit this page about barbecue because I'm a massive fan. Stop messing with my article, this article is more important than anything in life, even family MilkAndStrawberryPutin (talk) 01:54, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

As promised, testing to see if I could indeed find 10 articles devoted to Chérizier which did not refer to him as a politician, politicien, or homme politique, I found the following in the first 13 I tested (The only article I omitted below is one from the WaPo that was from 2020, which also did not refer to him as a politician):

1. Independent,
2. BBC,
3. France 24,
4. RTL,
5. WaPo 3/04,
6. The Guardian 03/06,
7. The Guardian 8/17,
8. Le Nouvelliste 03/05,
9. Le Nouvelliste 02/29,
10. CNN
11. Le Monde
12. Libération

I did find one (and only one) article during the survey that mentioned the word "politician" in the context of Chérizier:

1. WaPo 3/14

which cites a London thinktank fellow saying he "probably 'wants to become a politician at some point'", adding that "to move forward an armistice or 'informal pact' with the gangs might be required. But such collusion between the government and alleged criminals is deeply unpopular among Haitians."

So there are two articles that cite someone saying he either believes he wants to become a politician (but is not yet), or shares the schmoozing, baby-kissing traits of politicians in addition to being a "volcano" and a "warlord".

Your comments about this being your article strike me as either indicating a lack of understanding of WP:OWN or that I should not bother responding. Assuming good faith, I have replied. :) -- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 01:21, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

By definition he's a politician. One source calls him a politician. Another source say he wants to be a politician. To label him a politician, you should look at the definition of a politician MilkAndStrawberryPutin (talk) 01:42, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Also why are you wasting your time on one word labeling him as something to make me mad because you know I care about this article more than anything in the world MilkAndStrawberryPutin (talk) 01:43, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Donald Trump is a politician yet every source calls him " U.S president". They don't directly call him a politician so should they remove the word, no because by definition he's a politician, like bro just stop MilkAndStrawberryPutin (talk) 01:45, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

If jimmy barbecue isnt a politician why are you like the only popular person removing the fact that he's a politician MilkAndStrawberryPutin (talk) 01:45, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

If this article doesn't say that he's a politician, then that's bad. There's nothing to live for. I love barbecue, I'm a massive fan, and I care about this article more than family, friends, and everyone. If this article doesn't say he's a politician, I'm going to lose interest in this article and life won't be meaningful MilkAndStrawberryPutin (talk) 01:54, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Also stop trying to remove the word "criminal" in gang. The definition of gang is a group of people. People don't know what type of gang something is unless you say "Street gang" or "criminal gang". Why are you trying to remove criminal from this beautiful article? MilkAndStrawberryPutin (talk) 01:59, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Please read WP:ONUS (The responsibility for achieving consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content) and remove the disputed label until you gain consensus for it. Your addition of the word "politician" to the lede on 26 March has been challenged and has had no support, largely because it is not supported by RS... see for example CBS News, which notes that he has threatened "genocide", which is not very politician-like. An IP who mysteriously found the page immediately after I removed the unsupported label would only count as support if they discussed here. Currently 2 people oppose your addition and only you are in favor of it. This is not consensus, per ONUS. Reminder: this is not a call for anyone to log out and add IP commentary... -- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 20:51, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

The only person challenging the word was you and another editor. Nobody else is removing the word "politician" because he is a political figure. And that ip editor that reverted your edit wasn't me. 2 people support having the word and 2 people disagree. MilkAndStrawberryPutin (talk) 21:30, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

"he has threatened genocide, which is not very politician-like." Bruh the statement i just quoted is dumb. Adolf Hitler and many others either threatened or caused genocide, and they're politicians MilkAndStrawberryPutin (talk) 21:32, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

I already gained consensus. By the ip editor and no one is removing the word politician because everyone agrees with me. Can you just end this already? MilkAndStrawberryPutin (talk) 21:33, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

You know what, instead of saying "politician", what if we say "political leader". Is that something you agree on MilkAndStrawberryPutin (talk) 21:37, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Actually I changed my mind "political leader" sounds dumb. Just end this and move on. There's a few sources that call him a politician/political figure. I got consensus from somebody else, I did everything you told me. Move on. You're ruining life with these edits MilkAndStrawberryPutin (talk) 21:44, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Calling him a gang leader, a former police officer, and even a warlord are OK because these are found in RS. Trump and Hitler can be called politicians because they ran for (and were elected to) office. -- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 22:37, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

And I linked a reliable source that called him a politician. And by definition he's a politician because he seeked power and took power in different territories in the country. You're like the only person who removed that he's a politician because by definition he is. Move on bruh, you're wasting your time. And you know I care about this article more than anything in life because barbecue is the greatest man that ever existed. MilkAndStrawberryPutin (talk) 23:29, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

The source seemed to say (as Sashi pointed out) that Chérizier has characteristics typical of a politician. That is, he would be a good politician if he became one. I don't think that it is sufficient to label him a politician. This seems especially so considering the numerous other reliable sources about him which do not politician at all.

This seems to fit the requirements for WP:BLPREMOVE due to being contentious and unsourced/poorly sourced. XabqEfdg (talk) 00:10, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

Also Hitler wasn't elected, he took power. No one voted for him. Just stop replying because your statements are so wrong, you're wasting your time. Just stop replying MilkAndStrawberryPutin (talk) 23:31, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

You are correct that he was appointed (not elected) after he ran for President. You are not right that nobody voted for him, but that is not the point. The point is that politicians run for office. This may be why en.wp does not call Alexei Navalny a politician? (Britannica does.) Oh look, a 15th article in an RS (Reuters) devoted entirely to Chérizier that does not refer to him as a politician. :) -- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 23:59, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Why are we still talking about this? Can't you move on in life. It's not required for you to run for office to become a politician. The definition of a politician is someone who's seeking power or already has it. Barbecue is seeking to overthrow the government, and he took over a city in Haiti and controls it now. That's why you're like the only person removing the word politician from the barbecue article, because he is a politician. Why do you care so much about removing one word? Like bro move on MilkAndStrawberryPutin (talk) 01:11, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

And I already showed a source that calls him a politician. You don't need 10 sources like you said. Stop lying and move on. MilkAndStrawberryPutin (talk) 01:13, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

stop replying bruh MilkAndStrawberryPutin (talk) 01:13, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

• Cambridge definition of a politician: a member of a government or law-making organization;
• Collins: A politician is a person whose job is in politics, especially a member of parliament or congress.
• Oxford Learners: 1) a person whose job involves politics, especially as an elected member of parliament, etc. 2) (disapproving) a person who is good at using different situations in an organization to try to get power or advantage for himself or herself.

The citation you provided is using the 2nd Oxford definition (also the 3rd Collins definition), which is said to be disapproving (or derogatory), i.e. expresses a POV, and is therefore not neutral. We've left this survey open long enough. Time to change the text. -- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 17:55, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

I found a definition on another website that says "a seeker or holder of public office." He's seeking public office constantly trying to overthrow government and he has political influence and a reliable source calls him a politician MilkAndStrawberryPutin (talk) 18:20, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

Can you please stop already? MilkAndStrawberryPutin (talk) 18:20, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

Misinformation should not be left in en.wp. Neither article that it is claimed says he is de facto the most important political figure in Haiti say any such thing. Your removal of the failed verification templates and your insistence, since adding the word politician to the lede on 26 March and repeatedly edit-warring it back in, is a disservice to readers. Please restore the failed verification templates and remove the unwarranted descriptor from the lede. Thank you.-- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 18:33, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

De facto means a fact may or may not be true. It's not misinformation. You're the one edit warring btw. You're disrupting the peace of this encyclopedia and by definition, and I provided the most popular definition, that Jimmy Barbecue is a politician and a reliable source says so. That's why you're like the only person removing that he's a politician MilkAndStrawberryPutin (talk) 18:41, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

De facto means "in fact" or "in reality". Often as opposed to de jure, or "by law". It does not mean that something may or may not be true.

XabqEfdg (talk) 19:23, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

"in fact, or in effect, whether by right or not." The definition i just quoted is on Google. Just look up de facto definition MilkAndStrawberryPutin (talk) 19:26, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

Also this reliable source does in fact call jimmy barbecue a politician. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/10/haiti-gang-boss-kingpin-barbecue-jimmy-cherizier and he matches one of the definitions of the word politician i found on Google MilkAndStrawberryPutin (talk) 19:28, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

"Whether by right or not" [emphasis added], that is, de jure. It does not say "whether right or not". XabqEfdg (talk) 19:51, 31 March 2024 (UTC)