Talk:Jimmy Cleveland

Death?

There have been reports on a couple of web forums that Jimmy Cleveland died on August 25, but so far there are no reputable sources for the story. Even if it is true, we can't put it into the article until it is reported by some source that we can trust. Please don't try; your edit will simply have to be reverted. (Google News shows nothing so far.) Looie496 (talk) 21:10, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

"Jazz Times" has an article dated September 3 stating that he died on August 23, 2008. [1] -- BurienBomber

The current issue of Cadence, October-December 2008, does likewise. Updated the article and this talk page accordingly. Philip Cross (talk) 16:36, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Having been a personal friend of Jimmy and his wife, Janet, I can tell you that he did, in fact die on the 23rd of August.

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INCORRECT PHOTOGRAPH

First: The photograph you have presented is not that of Jimmy Cleveland. I know this because I have several pictures of him and own copies of his LP'S. In additional, Jimmy Cleveland was not a left-handed trombonist. I believe your photo is that of Slide Hampton. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Harryslide (talk • contribs) 16:46, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

I asked at c:Commons:OTRS/Noticeboard#Source_of_File:Jimmy_Cleveland.jpg, maybe the OTRS ticket helps us to discover more about the origins of the picture used here. —Kusma (t·c) 08:17, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

Photo commented out for now, until the issue is sorted. Are there any other, preferably less questionable, images of the artist available for Wikipedia? --Francis Schonken (talk) 08:43, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

For clarity: this is the image in question. About the file:

• Dubious source: the uploader quotes this Wikipedia project space page as "source" of the photograph (which is clear nonsense, and might be sufficient as a reason to remove it from the commons repository).
• The photograph has been photoshopped in 2008
• The image seems to show some deformation: looks as if its height has been stretched
• It can also not be excluded that the image has been flipped around a vertical axis (which would make a right-handed trombonist appear as left-handed).

@Harryslide: is it possible that the possible deformation described in the two last points above makes this seem as someone else as it actually is? --Francis Schonken (talk) 10:35, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

I was the OTRS agent that handled the ticket. The claim that the source is "clear nonsense" is itself clear nonsense. You may not be aware of it, but we used to have a dedicated page that gave instructions about how a reader could submit a photo to upload if they didn't want to create an account, so that's the route that this photo came to us. As to the accuracy of the image, unfortunately I don't have enough knowledge to comment. —howcheng {chat} 15:22, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

There are several other jazz sites using the image now, so either it is Cleveland or they don't do fact checking and should be placed on a list of sources not to use. Walter Görlitz (talk) 07:01, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

Whether other sites did or did not do fact checking is not the topic here. Whether we fact-check this file is. But then we can't, while the actual source of the file is not revealed (see problem as explained in my reply to Howcheng below). Sum of it all: we can't use the file, while not fact-checkable – the OTRS handler's off-topic comments don't help to assuage that rather plain fact. --Francis Schonken (talk) 07:58, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

Francis Schonken, from what is said at the OTRS noticeboard on Commons, "the photographer should be fairly certain of Cleveland's identity, though there's nothing useful to prove that the image is actually of Cleveland." After rescaling and flipping the image, I am no longer sure either way whether this could be him or not. It would be really helpful to have some other post-1990 (post-1960 would already be a useful step) photos to compare with. But in any case, images are the traditional exception to no original research. —Kusma (t·c) 09:59, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

Whether the image is OR or not, it is not exempt of WP:V: an OR image can usually be checked (i.e. verified) with the uploader if and when doubts arise, but an OTRS-submitted OR image is somewhat more complex to verify. Maybe someone with access to the OTRS ticket can try to contact the one who submitted the ticket (named Quad Wing if I understand correctly), inviting them, if they can do so, to give some more explanation about the image they submitted via OTRS? --Francis Schonken (talk) 11:16, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

@Howcheng: but that Wikipedia namespace page, whether before or after it was turned into a redirect is not the source of the commons file – and the commons page on the file clearly indicates, currently, that a Wikipedia page, which afaics never contained that file, is mentioned as the source of that file. For me, that represents an irregularity that was not addressed neither before, nor during, nor after the handling of the OTRS ticket (whatever its content), imho sufficient as reason to delete the file at commons (which is not the topic on this talk page), or at least to never use it in Wikipedia (which we can decide here). --Francis Schonken (talk) 07:54, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

@Francis Schonken: I don't work OTRS anymore, so I can't say how procedures are now, but back then, if someone said, "This is my photo", assuming a Google image search didn't show that they copied it from somewhere else, we took them at their word. I suppose I could have written, "Personal photo submitted to WMF via [link]" instead. —howcheng {chat} 16:04, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

• Looking at the trombonist here (look around 20:26), who is Cleveland according to this website, I find it reasonable enough to assume this is the right person. —Kusma (t·c) 12:37, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

IMO possible, but that's as far as I'll go. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:12, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

Shows a right-handed trombonist, so the Commons photo is impossibly the same man (unless the photo is seriously doctored, in which case English Wikipedia shouldn't be using it either). --Francis Schonken (talk) 18:46, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

Francis Schonken, I may have been too fast, but let me explain myself. As there was no image in the article, I compared the result of my recent research with the photo I had saved on my hard drive, which I thought was the same. But apparently I had saved that after flipping and rescaling, which makes it look more like the person in the video. Mirrored images are fairly common for black and white photographs, so I can't see how we can deduce the handedness of the trombonist from the picture. We don't have proof, but don't need to question the good faith of the uploader. —Kusma (t·c) 19:16, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

As said, unverifiable at this stage: in case of doubt whether something is verifiable or unverifiable it shouldn't be used, of course. --Francis Schonken (talk) 19:25, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

Since it's not a living person, would something like an album cover be acceptable as fair use? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:56, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

Per c:Commons:OTRS/Noticeboard#Source_of_File:Jimmy_Cleveland.jpg the ticket is from the author of the photograph, so that part is verified at least. —howcheng {chat} 06:12, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

Also, this is Slide Hampton. Not even close IMHO. --Ganímedes (talk) 16:57, 2 September 2020 (UTC)