Talk:John A. McDougall

Death

With a heavy heart, we share the news of Dr. John McDougall’s passing. A visionary physician and author, beloved husband, father, grandfather, brother, mentor and friend, Dr. McDougall died peacefully at his home on Saturday, June 22nd, at the age of 77. Kezzz'd (talk) 17:57, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Died at 77 and was ill was a very long time. It's interesting because a lot of his followers were using this talk-page inappropriately claiming he was going to live to a very old age. We need good WP:RS for his death date. I will look around. Psychologist Guy (talk) 18:58, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Will this[1] do? Bon courage (talk) 06:37, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Plant-based News is a weak source, it is usually removed from Wikipedia but is probably acceptable to use for a death notice or obituary, it's probably worth waiting until they publish better sources on his death. That will probably happen in the next week. Psychologist Guy (talk) 10:51, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

“ It's interesting because a lot of his followers were using this talk-page inappropriately claiming he was going to live to a very old age.”

Surely you must have links to this? 173.49.59.45 (talk) 08:42, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

It's in the archive of this talk-page somewhere if you click on the archives. I have discussed the topic many times with his followers over the years. I called it correctly about a year ago, I knew he was very unwell and wasn't going to make it to old age. Of course his die-hard followers are now all over the Reddit plant-based diet sub claiming he only died at 77 because he ate meat as a teenager. They always have an excuse. The fact that he ate some meat as a teenager has nothing to do with the fact he died at aged 77. It's about long-time lifestyle changes that impact longevity, not things you did briefly for a few years as a teenager. There is also the fact that there are many factors associated with longevity but online today all people want to talk about is diet. Psychologist Guy (talk) 10:49, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

So… no link? 173.49.59.45 (talk) 16:29, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

He had a massive stroke when he was 19 or 20. A bit more than doing something “briefly”. How would you have been privy to his health records? 172.222.56.202 (talk) 03:14, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Dr. McDougall is dead and in the ground, but yet this poorly presented, biased article lives on, completely unchanged despite abundant constructive criticism over the years. This is an example of the worst of Wikipedia. Jack.B.2007 (talk) Jack.B.2007 (talk) 16:54, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Nobody's produced any evidence of a problem. This guy promoted a dodgy diet, and got called out for it in reliable sources. Wikipedia reflects that. Bon courage (talk) 19:33, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

This page is talked about on the 'Chef AJ Live' show. She mentioned how great this article is by name on her July 1, 2024, show, "In Loving Memory of Dr. John McDougall", at 38 minutes in: "Wikipedia did a horrible job..." I agree, although I might not use the word horrible. Jack.B.2007 (talk) 03:07, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

And this is relevant how? This is WP:NOTAFORUM and dodgy Youtube diet channels are irrelevant to Wikipedia (except maybe when mentioned by reliable sources). Bon courage (talk) 03:32, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Subjective not objective

It looks to me like whoever wrote the second paragraph is a staunch meat lover, and anti plant-based eating. I would like to see some edits, such as...

It has been categorized by some as a low-fat fad diet. Other nutrition experts consider it to be an extremely healthy diet. The diet rejects all animal products as well as cooking oils, processed food, alcoholic beverages and caffeinated drinks. As with any low-fat high-fibre plant-based diet, it may lead to weight loss, lowering of cholesterol, and many other health benefits that have been proven by science. Some people who are accustomed to eating animal based products and high-fat, high-sugar or highly processed foods in general may find it a difficult diet to follow, and experience some physical discomfort until their body adjusts. 2604:3D08:447B:1900:4559:D95:A488:BAB9 (talk) 22:30, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Not correct. He was wrong about pretty much everything and the science doesn't support his claims. We have multiple WP:RS noting that his fad diet had no good evidence to support it. Psychologist Guy (talk) 23:31, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. This is definitely a subjective article. I wish more effort was put into briefly explaining the tenants of the diet and less effort put into citing multiple criticisms. I'm neither for nor against this diet, but I don't care for the bias here. That is not why I sought out information on Dr. McDougall. 173.47.45.49 (talk) 00:02, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Tenants? Bon courage (talk) 04:56, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Agreed, this is a completely subjective review- from fad diet to the entire last paragraph. There is significant empirical evidence that validates his work. Moreover, Wikipedia shouldn’t represent such bias. 72.73.114.211 (talk) 10:13, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

"There is significant empirical evidence that validates his work" ← citation needed! Bon courage (talk) 12:57, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

"There is significant empirical evidence that validates his work"...Here are five published studies that back John McDougall's 50+ years of treating and curing chronic disease. I could find many, many, more if necessary to help improve the accuracy of this page. [2][3][4][5][6] Annie354 (talk) 18:41, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Those are all unreliable primary sources, WP:MEDRS would be needed for such claims. Bon courage (talk) 18:51, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:MEDRS States that ideal sources for biomedical material include reputable medical journals. NIHis undisputedly reputable which accounts for 4/5 of these sources. The 5th is published on the American Heart Association’s website. All 5 are well within reliable source guidelines. 2600:6C67:517F:4674:8064:1807:1F02:12EA (talk) 19:11, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

There is no clinical evidence that McDougall's diet (or any diet for that matter) has "cured" chronic diseases. The sources listed make no such claims so I doubt Annie354 has read any of them. Two of the sources Annie354 listed are about complete proteins and protein combining. How is this empirical evidence for curing chronic diseases? The other sources are short-term RCTs that do not mention any significant results, merely improvements in BMI. Again, no evidence any chronic disease has been cured on the McDougall diet. Psychologist Guy (talk) 19:20, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

See WP:MEDFAQ#PUBMEDRIGHT Bon courage (talk) 19:22, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Curing chronic disease was not the matter in need of citing. The sources listed were in reference to: "There is significant empirical evidence that validates his work" ← citation needed! Bon courage (talk) 12:57, 26 June 2024 (UTC) Annie354 (talk) 02:51, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

You are moving goal posts and doubling down on your claim. You said there is 50+ years of evidence of McDougall curing chronic disease. You haven't cited a single reliable source for this claim. You now claim to have shown empirical evidence that validates his work but you haven't. You have cited some papers he co-wrote himself. Show us 4 or 5 meta-analyses or systematic review validating his work. There isn't any because his diet has no clinical evidence to support it. Citing his own papers is not evidence. Where is the independent replication? In a nutshell you have not provided any evidence. We have been at this since 2020. Every few months a new user comes to this talk-page and claims there is evidence for the McDougall diet but no reliable medical sources are ever given. Big talk, empty claims. Psychologist Guy (talk) 04:49, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 June 2024

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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"It has been categorized as a low-fat fad diet.[2] The diet rejects all animal products as well as cooking oils, processed food, alcoholic beverages and caffeinated drinks. As with any restrictive low-fat diet, it may lead to flatulence, possibly poor mineral absorption from excess fiber, and limited food choices that may lead to a feeling of deprivation.[2]"

1. Change "fad" to "starch-based".

2. Remove "processed food, alcoholic beverages and caffeinated drinks". End sentence after "cooking oils".

3. Remove sentence "As with any restrictive low-fat diet , it may lead to flatulence, possibly poor mineral absorption from excess fiber, and limited food choices that may lead to a feeling of deprivation.[2]" Replace above sentence with, "His dietary recommendations have been used to reverse and prevent chronic illnesses for over 50 years". Taterslayer (talk) 22:40, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. The text would appear to be supported by the cited sources. PianoDan (talk) 22:59, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Where’s the source that it’s a fad diet?

also, it’s not appropriate to add “ As with any restrictive low-fat diet , it may lead to flatulence, possibly poor mineral absorption from excess fiber, and limited food choices that may lead to a feeling of deprivation” in a Wikipedia page. This isn’t a school of learning. Absolutely inappropriate. It needs removed. 47.215.74.175 (talk) 14:27, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Semi-protected edit request on 2 July 2024

Remove It has been categorized as a low-fat fad diet.[2] The diet rejects all animal products as well as cooking oils, processed food, alcoholic beverages and caffeinated drinks. As with any restrictive low-fat diet, it may lead to flatulence, possibly poor mineral absorption from excess fiber, and limited food choices that may lead to a feeling of deprivation.[2]

REASONS: 2013 Wardlaw's Nutrition textbook is out of date. The current 2024 Wardlaw's Contemporary Nutrition: A Functional Approach, 7th edition does NOT discuss or criticize the McDougall Program

Remove LAST PARAGRAPHS In 1992, nutritionist Kurt Butler described McDougall's ideas as "vegetarian extremism" and McDougall as "Americas most influential vegan zealot" who has taken the low-fat vegetarian diet to extremes.[4] He also suggested that McDougall's diet may increase the risk of calcium and iron deficiency and is not safe for children.[4]

Reviewing McDougall's book The McDougall Program for Maximum Weight Loss, nutritionist Fredrick J. Stare and epidemiologist Elizabeth Whelan criticized its restrictive regime and "poor advice", concluding that the diet's concepts were "extreme and out of keeping with nutritional reality". The authors state that failure to consume dairy products creates a risk for osteoporosis, and that if animal products cannot be replaced with peanut butter and soybean foods, vegans may not obtain enough protein.[19] Reviewing The McDougall Program: 12 Days to Dynamic Health, doctor Harriet Hall wrote that the book is filled with anecdotes and questionable statements, and that it makes many claims which are not supported by science.[13] Hall concluded that "Some of McDougall’s recommendations are in line with mainstream advice, but there is reason to fear that strict adherence to his whole Program might result in nutritional deficits that could do more harm than good."[13]

McDougall's diet was studied as a potential treatment for relapsing remitting multiple sclerosis, but showed no changes in brain MRI outcomes, MS relapses or disability.[20]

REASON out of date negative criticisms of a vegan diet not in line with current AMA recommendations. The anti-vegan claims written are unsubstantiated and already mentioned in other places in this article. WFPB Vegan (talk) 21:18, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Geardona (talk to me?) 23:53, 2 July 2024 (UTC)