Talk:John Allan Boyd

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Very confused...

I see there is a John Boyd who has the exact same date of birth and who also played as a winger on Barry Hugman's Footballers. The link is here: http://hugmansfootballers.com/player/2004 Hugman doesn't list Alan as a middle name and suggests he was born in Massachusetts in the USA and died in Horsham, England in 2007. The Massachusetts birth would make sense because although Dumbarton as a place of birth is listed on his profile on Aberdeen FC's website, Scotland's People (the official and full birth/death records of Scotland) suggests that nobody by the name of John Boyd or John Alan Boyd or Alan Boyd was born in Dumbarton in 1926 (my search: https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/record-results?search_type=people&dl_cat=statutory&dl_rec=statutory-births&surname=boyd&surname_so=exact&forename=john&forename_so=exact&from_year=1926&to_year=1926&record_type=stat_births). A few things quite add up for me though. If this is the same John Boyd, why doesn't Hugman list his middle name as he normally does? Also, the Hugman profile suggests that he made 31 appearances for Bristol City in 1950, which would clash with the timing of the Scottish teams that he played for listed on this Wikipedia page. Can't make up my mind as to whether this is the same person. Any help or suggestions from other users would be appreciated! --Jkaharper (talk) 21:01, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

Two separate players? Scottish Boyd's profile and USA Boyd's profile (the latter is known as "Jackie" and is an inside forward rather than a winger). The name/DOB is a big coincidence but not unheard of... GiantSnowman 21:25, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

The Neil Brown and Sports Reference sources are ancient. They clearly have his DOB confused with the above American-born player. Should we not favour the recently revised Aberdeen FC source, particularly given his longevity with that club? --Jkaharper (talk) 12:11, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

If the 1929 birth date is correct, then he started his senior career at 16/17. Not unheard of, but unusual. GiantSnowman 14:58, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

Fair point but I've just had a look at Scotland's People. There's only one John Allan Boyd there. Died in Ayr in 2019, aged 89. I understand that the site isn't visible to non-users so you can view the image here: https://ibb.co/88p1zg4 Thoughts? --Jkaharper (talk) 19:24, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

What about John Alan Boyd, as his name is spelt in more sources? GiantSnowman 20:18, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

Click on the image above. The search was just for "Boyd, John". 7 deaths in Scotland in 2019. Only one with the middle name Allan, and the only one with no middle name listed died aged 31. --Jkaharper (talk) 20:22, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

OK, you've probably twisted my arm. I suggest you start a WP:RM to move the article. GiantSnowman 10:56, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

Done! Cheers --Jkaharper (talk) 15:45, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

Reverted. What on earth are you playing at? You listed it for a technical move then moved it yourself? Entirely inappropriate. It needs a proper WP:RM with full discussion for wider input. 2 people (one of whom is still not 100% convinced) is not "consensus". GiantSnowman 16:16, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

"Twisted my arm" generally means concede. You were the one who wasn't clear. Both myself and User:Canadian Paul thought it was fitting that the page be moved to 1929. It is only yourself who is protesting. The 1929 source is the most up to date one we have (last updated this year), and it comes from a website linked to the team that Boyd spent the most time with. The Neil Brown and Sports Reference sources are very outdated, and in many instances they have been incorrect on other players in the past. The people who run that Aberdeen F.C. site likely received notice from either the club directly or Boyd's family of his passing, and changed his DOB upon discovering that it was incorrect. There are no John Allan (or Alan) Boyds who died in 2019 aged 92. Scotland's People is a complete record of births, deaths and marriages for that respective country. You can be pedantic and dismiss us backing up the Aberdeen F.C. source as "original research" or you can apply common sense and graciously concede that the stronger evidence suggests he was born in 1929 and that the 1926 birth was likely a confusion with the other John Boyd (aka Jackie Boyd) discussed above. You are being unecessarily difficult about this. If the sensible WP:RM to 1929 does not occur now because of you refusing to let go of these inferior sources, I suggest we move the page to John Boyd (footballer, born 1920s) and have the intro say "John Allan (or Alan) Boyd" (1926 or 1929 – 2019 etc etc) but it will look silly and seems to be completely pointless given that the source with elaborated information is more up to date, closer to the subject and is backed up by the official records. Ridiculous behaviour. --Jkaharper (talk) 20:50, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 5 August 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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John Boyd (footballer, born 1926) → John Boyd (footballer, born 1929) – new source gives correct DOB; Scottish death records back up source; consensus reached on talk page Jkaharper (talk) 15:42, 5 August 2020 (UTC) —Relisting. Steel1943 (talk) 01:45, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

This is a contested technical request (permalink). -- Dane ^talk 16:24, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page moves. GiantSnowman 16:25, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

• Comment - I am still not 100% convinced, given the 1929 date (only present on one source, the Aberdeen one) has only been verified by original research, and more sources use the 1926 date...if the page is moved then 'John Boyd (footballer, born 1926)' needs to be turned into a redirect to the article on Jackie Boyd (born 1926) rather than redirect to the new 1929 location of this page (if that makes sense?) GiantSnowman 16:29, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
  • Disagree re Jackie Boyd. In view of sources, it's more likely that someone going to this title is looking for this John Boyd, so a hatnote at this article is more appropriate and leave the resulting redirect alone. The article on Jackie does call him John but gives only two sources, neither terribly convincing but one has a bet both ways and the other calls him Jackie. So that article needs some fixing too. Andrewa (talk) 19:38, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

TWO sources call him John, one calls him Jackie. GiantSnowman 19:40, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

See below. Andrewa (talk) 19:46, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

• Comment - Somehow I managed to completely miss the title of this article when I changed the source and added new information; sorry about that! In any case, I do want to mention that Olympedia (the source/successor of Sports Reference, depending on how you look at it) will be updating Boyd to a 1929 year of birth, so for what it's worth, that will be one more source with 1929 in a few days. Canadian Paul 03:42, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
• Comment For easier understanding of the issue, it is better to add the sources in this discussion that show the DOB, either '26 or '29. Nomian (talk) 04:54, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
• Support. Agree that the article should mention both dates, (and doesn't right now) but this seems the better supported by sources. Andrewa (talk) 19:25, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

@Nomian and Andrewa: - of the current sources, two say 1926 (this and this) and one says 1929. GiantSnowman 19:36, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Correct. We almost certainly have some citogenesis here. But which way around? It's not a matter of just counting the sources IMO. Andrewa (talk) 19:45, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

I'm not sure which source should be given more weight than the other, none of them look much reliable to me. Nomian (talk) 04:57, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose per GiantSnowman. This does highlight a slight problem with using DOB as a disambiguator, where that is not certain, but given three low-quality sources, two of which say 1926 and one 1929, the balance of doubt goes slightly in favour of the 1926.  — Amakuru (talk) 12:00, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
• Support per the updated sources provided to show that he was born in 1929. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 07:34, 22 August 2020 (UTC)
• Weak Support per updated sources. None of the sources seem to be of decent quality and it's 2 against 2. But the updated sources from 2020 appear to be more accurate as discussed below. Nomian (talk) 04:27, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose. The player is called Al(l)an Boyd, not John. DrKay (talk) 17:00, 3 September 2020 (UTC)
• Support per nominator --FootyMessi9147 (talk) 06:02, 9 September 2020 (UTC) — FootyMessi9147 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Discussion

I note this previous move

 16:15, 5 August 2020 GiantSnowman talk contribs block  94 bytes +94  GiantSnowman moved page John Boyd (footballer, born 1929) to John Boyd (footballer, born 1926) over redirect: RV move, undiscussed 

which will be overwritten if this move goes ahead, and which indicates that there was at least one other (the one being reverted). Hopefully this RM will give us stability. Andrewa (talk) 19:25, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

The original location was 1926, and was moved to 1929 without discussion, which I then reverted and suggested a proper RM. GiantSnowman 19:34, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

And quite correctly. Andrewa (talk) 19:40, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

So should we maintain 1926 then? Nomian (talk) 05:12, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

There are now two sources that have John Boyd's DOB as 1929: here and here. Both of these were updated within the last few months to reflect the birth and death details collected upon news of his death. The two sources which cite 1926 are very dated and don't elaborate on other biographical information to the extent of the recent ones, thus I would support favouring the two 2020 sources with the amended 1929 birth year. Thanks --Jkaharper (talk) 19:14, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 12 September 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: No consensus. User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 15:01, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

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John Boyd (footballer, born 1929) → Allan Boyd – WP:COMMONNAME, as given in the sources in the article[1] and on the talk page above[2]. Note also: death notice in the Ayrshire Post, Scotland's People and Dictionary of Scottish Architects. One 'l' (and 1926 as birth year) given in "Alan Boyd" and "Alan Boyd" are mistakes. DrKay (talk) 16:50, 12 September 2020 (UTC) 13:02, 20 September 2020 (UTC) —Relisting. Anarchyte (talk • work) 14:04, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page moves. GiantSnowman 17:14, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose - the RM has recently closed and there was no issue over whether he was 'John' or 'Alan' or 'Allan'; the issue in dispute was the year of birth. Nominating again so soon after is POINTy. GiantSnowman 17:15, 12 September 2020 (UTC)
• Support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 17:33, 20 September 2020 (UTC)

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 18 February 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved (non-admin closure) (t · c) buidhe 04:44, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

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John Allan Boyd → John Boyd (footballer, born 1929) – Revert bold move. Matthew hk (talk) 03:29, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

This is a contested technical request (permalink). GeoffreyT2000 (talk) 21:14, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

• Also i am not sure Wikipedia:Move review/Log/2020 November#John Boyd (footballer, born 1929) should be closed as move or not. Matthew hk (talk) 03:32, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Yes this was as a result of the MR so shouldn't be overturned without discussion. If you think this was incorrect you should discuss with the closer. Crouch, Swale (talk) 18:05, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
• @Matthew hk and Crouch, Swale: See previous discussions Talk:John Allan Boyd#Requested move 5 August 2020 and Talk:John Allan Boyd#Requested move 12 September 2020. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 09:57, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Yes that's why it wouldn't be moved back as an undiscussed move. Crouch, Swale (talk) 17:30, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose. This is obviously not a technical request. The article is now at one of two commonest names for this subject. DrKay (talk) 20:17, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page moves. GiantSnowman 21:16, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose - the move to 'John Allan Boyd' was not a "bold move", it followed the lengthy discussion at Wikipedia:Move review/Log/2020 November#John Boyd (footballer, born 1929) and was a sensible decision given the differing view points discussed there. GiantSnowman 21:17, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.