Talk:John Cabot/Archive 1

Archive 1

Old discussion

Sorry about the slightly fuzzy Cabot Tower picture. It's an enlargement of a tiny portion from a ==

Headline text

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larger image. I'll dig out a better one when I can. Nevilley

Not first

I am now convinced that Richard America is the name sake of America, but John Cabot "was the first European after the Vikings who is known to have sighted North America"?? We all know Christopher Columbus wasn't the first European by a long shot to successfully cross the Atlantic, but what about the others who made the voyage between the 11th and 15th centuries? The Basque fisherman of the 14th century, Henry Sinclair in the early 15th century, even some of the Knights Templar are widely held to have made the journey when fleeing from France in 1307 - landing somewhere in Massachusetts/Rhode Island. See more on: http://www.millersville.edu/~columbus/papers/wrhagen.html I move for the sentence to be changed. --Gabbe 14:16 Dec 13, 2002 (UTC)

In fact we don't all know about "the others who made the voyage between the 11th and 15th centuries." The text during the years from 1480 onwards several expeditions had been sent out to look for Hy-Brasil, an island that would lie somewhere in the Atlantic Ocean according to Celtic legends. Some people think Newfoundland may have been found on (one of) these voyages is not even backed up by the links at this entry. A brief description from the Day letter might be more in order... yesWetman 07:48, 11 Feb 2004 (UTC)

It's indeed too strong a statement. However he is still the first one of which we are sure; with the exception of the Vikings (and the Native Americans if you want to count them in), none of the pre-Columbian discoveries is more than a 'maybe'.

For the cases you mention:

Basque (as well as Breton, Portuguese or English) fishermen may well have discovered North America, and more in particular the Newfoundland banks, before Cabot. There are certainly later cases where the Europeans that were supposed to 'discover' certain region met European fishers or whalers there, for example Jacques Cartier in the Gulf of St. Lawrence. However, very little information is known on these fishing voyages, and there is no positive evidence before the first decennium of the sixteenth century.

The claim for Henry Sinclair does not have much evidence; its main written source is the story of the Zeno brothers, which is connected to him by some, but may as well have been a 16th century fake.

The story of the Knights Templar I have never heared before, so I cannot comment on it.

Andre Engels 16:29 Dec 13, 2002 (UTC)

Have you read Holy Grail Across the Atlantic (esp re Henry Sinclair theory)? I grant it's quite a rope (ie a lot of yarns put together) but IMO valuable as a set of questions to explore. You sound more an historian than I am...Kwantus 04:34, 16 Sep 2003 (UTC) (PS: another maybe to put in there...is it St George or St Brennan?)

Well, it just happens to hit on one of my favorite subjects, it's not without reason that I am the author of the website http://www.win.tue.nl/~engels/discovery/. And, as said, what you mention is the problem with most of them - there's much "perhaps" and "could have" and such, but too few hard facts to get a positive (or negative) decision on whether the voyage actually took place and/or whether it actually reached America.

As for the saint, it's Saint Brendan you're thinking of. His story is certainly valuable as a source on the Irish travels, and parts of it have been identified with existing islands, such as the Shetlands. Other parts have been identified by some with America (e.g. Newfoundland), but those are rather uncertain. It is also not known whether the story tells about an actual voyage, or whether it is combined from various reports. Andre Engels 12:12, 16 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I don't believe the Templar Knights' story as any more than fluff to their reputation. Ahh, knights in shining armour and their brave deeds, eh? The only verified Irish or Welsh excursions before the vikings anywhere, have been at the furthest extent, Iceland. This is proved by archeology. Fantasise as much as you want, but it doesn't fit the FACTS. Such hopeful people without any care for the truth. Lord Kenneð Alansson 16:18, 22 May 2004 (UTC)

<f'get what I wrote here - the best evidence so far is Oak Island, and it struck me that could just as well be one treasure-hunting group realising they've been had and baboozling the next into buying them out. And the nearby tunnels supposedly found in '80s sewer construction were never studied.> Kwantus 00:11, 2005 Apr 11 (UTC)

Vinland

There's a revert war going on about the following:

Vinland is largely speculated to be Newfoundland, amongst other Atlantic Canada areas and the east coast of North America in the United States, depending on who you talk to. Adam of Bremen's account may have inspired John Cabot's mission across the Atlantic Ocean during the Americas' colonial times. That voyage would appear to have traced the former account, which led Cabot to claim Newfoundland for England, paving the way for the establishment the first chartered city in the New_World at St.John's. That place is generally considered where Cabot's first landfall was.

This section was first in Adam of Bremen, where it didn't belong. If it is to fit in here, it definitely needs to be rewritten heavily, as the suddenly launching into a discussion on Adam of Bremen and Vinland is extremely confusing. If there are indeed theories that Adam of Bremen's accounts inspired Cabot's journey then it would be good to mention them here. Is there anything in the literature about this? A googling didn't turn up anything on this. Martijn faassen 15:07, 22 May 2004 (UTC)

I agree, perhaps it jumped out of nowhere. It had been a generalistation that anybody who sought to seek out the far end of the ocean had been told or referred to such stories as the Hy-Brasil, Vinland and others like Atlantis, otherwise, what could have inspired these people to risk their lives(don't forget royal integrity from financings) but mania? Lord Kenneð Alansson 16:18, 22 May 2004 (UTC)

Do we have some source text that talks about what inspired Cabot? That would be interesting to put in the article. Martijn faassen 16:25, 22 May 2004 (UTC)

I am not sure, but I do not believe it is entirely specific. Most people of his class seem to have been raised with stories and they go out to find the truth, to be brave sailors and report the unknown. They might end up being similar reasons to Columbus', but I think sometimes, Columbus' reasons seem overblown to increase his fame, by linking it to greater people. Cabot does not seem to get the Americanisation attitudes, but a merely Canadian outlook on his achievments that aren't so much stars and gold. I do not believe we'll ever know for certain. I suppose I was implying that most men who attempted the excursions would at least heard of a reference to such former voyages, whether simple claims or fiction. Lord Kenneð Alansson 16:37, 22 May 2004 (UTC)

what was his childhood like

what did his parents do _ how do u thank Giovanni Caboto died

i dont know how to fix this but the pic of him on the site is not him. it is his son, sebastian. other sites on the web have pics of him posted. this pic was even used on a canadian stamp once. but its still not him. i think that it is him.It says so in my social studies book.I'm not really sure, but i'm just guessing.since u got points, probrally you're the one who is right.I'm still not really sure though.Maybe you are actually right.

Native of

From Gaeta, please. If it can be disputed, however, I never heard I came from Genoa. --Attilios 15:32, 16 November 2006 (

John Cabot

Please, write a serious article about the life of John Cabot instead of mentiong the vikings, the fake map of vinland, erik the red and other bulls. lol John Cabot, whose real name was Giovanni Caboto (1450-1498) was born in Gaeta, not Genoa, and he was son of a rich family. In 1470 he married the Venetian Mattea Bragadin, who gave birth to Ludovico, Sebastiano and Sante (not Sancio). In 1498 Caboto and his son Sante were killed in Canada by natives, according to the portuguese papers of 1501, October 19. You can find more about him trying to translate from Italian into english the following books, which are absolutely accurate: - "I Caboto Cives Caietani" by Salvatore Riciniello - "La Passione per Scoprire" by Frank Alusio A short article about Cabot: http://64.78.37.9/tribuna/article.asp?article=82&item=27&n=309&month=4&year=2003 Jack 22:32, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Go ahead and write it! Wikipedia is a community work and anyone can contribute. If you have the facts, let's have them in the article - Adrian Pingstone 21:42, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi Adrian Pingstone, I'd like, but I am busy with the Univ. However you have the sources. Good Luck.

Jack 22:59, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

I have to dispute this; if the information is widely available, it must be based upon some academic research. From an Italian-to-English translation of the URL you provide, to me it seems like it is merely conjecture, as the article does not site references. Further, if there is disagreement within the academic community, there should be more in-depth research available on the web that will back this article up. I believe we should leave the article as it was until such time as there is a collaboration of evidence that supports changing something as important as a birth city and some of his history. On the other hand... if this information is incorrect, the article really should be stripped down and re-done based off of credible sources. -- KirinX 22:03, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Dear KirinX, if you had read or translated from italian into english the article in question, you would have discovered that it was composed by a Canadian scholar who based his own study on Bertolini's historical writings and on papers of the Renaissance. The Italian article is an extrapolation and comes from Frank Alusio's book, written in english language and published in Canada in the year 1997, when the president of the Italian Republic Oscar Luigi Scalfaro and Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II went to Canada to commemorate the 500th anniversary of John Cabot's arrival in Newfoundland.

The book is more accurate than many other sources I have found, here s why I mentioned it. You say "if there is disagreement within the academic community" and I agree with you. But is our wikipedia article accurated, reliable and based on true academic reasearch? Honestly, did you read it? You can find: "Giovanni Caboto was a Genovese navigator". Can you tell me where s the proof that he was from Genoa? Our Encyclopedia Britannica reports that he was perhaps from Genoa. It s wrong. If we want to know Caboto s birthplace we must go to Italy, in a small country today belonging to Latium and best known as Gaeta. We can find the first info about Caboto only in that country.

In fact, if we consider the original papers of the time, there is no "Caboto" in Genoa. (In Genoa we can find the Cabotos only during the late XV century.) Do you consider the complete Encyclopedia Britannica as an academic source? I do not. You can read: "There is some evidence to suggest that Cabot reached America again, but at least one contemporary source indicates that the expedition was lost at sea". Lost at sea. Where is the proof? Pietro Pasqualigo's papers of 1501, and they are contemporary sources, lead us to think that Giovanni and Sante Caboto reached the coasts but were killed by Canadian natives near Grates Cove, in Terranova.

The proof is given by Caboto's personal belongings (eg. silver earrings of Venetian origin, Italian sword etc.) worn by Canadian natives, later caught by a Portuguese sailorman, Gaspar Corte Real. This info comes from Frank Alusio's book. There is a link in english language where you can read something about Gaspar etc., but it shows some old mistakes and fake info.

http://www.biographi.ca/EN/ShowBio.asp?BioId=34223.

Please, consider that the link is based on old sources (1831-1962), while Frank Alusio s book was published in 1990s. Historically speaking, it is a little bit more reliable.

-- Jack 23:59, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Why does the article stop

Why does the article stop just when he arrives in England? Bastie 22:02, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

It seems the article was originally much longer but was truncated on 5 January. Why was this done? Bastie 07:59, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Bastie, IMHO there are many idiots who never studied history. They are nationalists, love to cut the truth and add their own bulls and opinions. Someone should stop them. -- Jack 18:15, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

lol, is there some sort of Italian vs. English quarrel over this article? I don't think anyone seriously denies he was Italian. Bastie 18:02, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

No Bastie, there is no quarrel between Italian and English wikipedians. The fact is that some guys love to act as idiots, or love to write bulls about Caboto. First of all Caboto was from Gaeta and not from Genoa. Second, Gaeta is in Latium and not near Naples. Some writers ignore that in Italy there are two countries with the same name, Gaeta! In fact it is in Latium that we have the first papers about Caboto's family and ancestors. In addition some idiot continues to delete the proved data we know about him (eg. the name of his wife Mattea Bragadin etc., the data about England etc.) There is another disagreement, and it is about the vikings names. Stop writing those bulls, please. We only know that the colonizers of Canada were men of northern origin (from Iceland? Great Britain? Norway? Ireland?..) but historically speaking there is no proof of who, really, they were, from which country they came etc. Also, we don't know their real names (eg. Leif Ericson is only supported by Myths and Sagas, not history.) Theories and personal opinions, especially about a fake map named Vinland, are useless here. Jack 02:02, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes there is! If some writes something bad about Cabot, you would be mad too!

fix the Born/Death date

Can someone fix the Born/Death date? Its been vandalized since February.

Sudden Ending of Article

For some reason or another, there is no information on the actual voyage. Is this caused by vandalism, lack of information, or simply no one having bothered to continue? A Max J 13:14, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes the article is very poor. Surprising, since this should be one of the most important pages on English wiki. Drutt 16:45, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Surprisingly it's the end of May and still nothing on the actual voyages. I'm going to see if I can change that. Esprix 12:30, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Copied Text

Just thought I should let you all know that a lot of the text in this article is copied straight from this site. http://www.heritage.nf.ca/exploration/cabot.html

Added Expand Section

Can anyone help with the exploration section?  DangerousNerd  talk 20:26, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Caboto?

Why has this been moved from John Cabot? That has always been his name in English. Drutt 09:01, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

IMO, it should work the other way, Giovanni Caboto links to John Cabot. This is English Wikipedia, most people are going to search for "John Cabot" Benkenobi18 15:15, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Picture

I don't know what to do about this, but the picture of Cabot (J) is actually a picture of his son, Cabot (S). See John Pope's book, the Many Landfalls of John Cabot, and also note the wacky double beard. Does anyone know of a real picture? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.248.181.175 (talk) 09:53, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

===I removed this inaccurate picture. I found it in Golay and Bowman's North American Exploration too.

Picture has been removed. It is not a reliable source. The picture was linked to a 3rd Grade explorer project. In the sources for the Grade 3 project the Mariner's Museum lists the picture as Sebastian Cabot (if you scroll over it). It is an inaccuracy and an oversight.

Malachi is survivin (talk) 03:19, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Theory

Has anyone ever looked into the theory proposed by Rodney Broome that John Cabot was murdered after he sailed down the coast of North American and his maps were taken from him? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.1.209.230 (talk) 19:05, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

How long did John Cabot stay in North America before he returned?

I just wanna know. And also, did he have any significant contact with the Native tribes during his expedition? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dennisjiewenliu (talk • contribs) 02:31, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Contradiction

If John Cabot is recognized to have landed in Newfoundland, he cannot be the discoverer of the North American mainland, because Newfoundland is an island. As far as I know, any visits to the mainland are unrecognized speculation. So the intro should be reworded.--Boffob (talk) 15:08, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

I have done some edits to try and resolve the matter. The Newfoundland page mentions a document in the Spanish National Archives, by a Bristol merchant. This may refer to the Cape Bauld and Belle island areas which are quite near the mainland. 16 May 2008. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.13.208.167 (talk) 19:05, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

OK, I removed the tag. I also removed the Newfoundland and Labrador and Canada links, because neither Canada nor the province existed at the time, also because mentioning the province name with the island sounds redundant.--Boffob (talk) 19:31, 16 May 2008 (UTC)