Talk:John Hines (Australian soldier)

Correct translation of title of Krass article

Just wondering if the current translation of the German title ("Das Gesicht, das den Kaiser auf die Palme brachte") which is given as "The face that got the Kaiser's goat" is correct? Google translate gives me "The face that brought the emperor to the palm" instead. Anotherclown (talk) 21:28, 7 October 2016 (UTC)

John Heim

Genealogy researchers on the RootsChat forum have built a good case that Hines was born on 11th October 1878 in Liverpool, England to Jacob and Dora Heim. His parents were German immigrants who settled in Liverpool. The evidence to support this includes the identification of two of Hines' family members who were mentioned in his Australian Army record. Firstly his mother who was called Dora, Heim's mother was called Dora and secondly his sister Mary Thompson, Heim's sister Mary Heim married David Thompson in Liverpool in 1893. The Heim family also resided in Eldon Place an address given in the Australian Army record. Heim married Hannah Maher in Liverpool in 1899 and they had two children together, Jacob and Hannah. Heim disappears from the records in the early 1900s and Hannah remarried in 1906 as a widow. This pretence of widowhood suggests that the couple had permanently separated but as was common for people of little means they were unable to pursue a divorce so they resorted to denying each others' existence instead. Heim's character and career are also a good match for Hines. Here is the RootsChat discussion thread and a website to support this new information:-

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=788928.0

http://johnheim.webs.com/C3MC2 (talk) 10:13, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

This isn't a reliable source, and Wikipedia is not a venue to publish original research. I note that you removed material referenced to reliable sources as part of adding this. I suspect that the analysis there is correct, but it needs to be published in a reliable source to be usable here. Nick-D (talk) 10:45, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

Why is the website containing reliable source material that improves the article not acceptable? Do researchers have to write books to be taken seriously?C3MC2 (talk) 10:53, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

Because it's material someone has found and claims applies to this person, without any kind of professional verification processes: please see WP:RS and WP:OR. I'd be surprised if it's wrong (and is a good bit of research by the people responsible), but the source isn't usable for Wikipedia purposes. Nick-D (talk) 10:57, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

I've done all I can do on this matter to present the new information with a direct link to reliable original source material for readers to verify so the responsibility for ensuring that this new information is added to wiki at some point in the future is up to you and others. I don't write books.C3MC2 (talk) 11:50, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

Here are some points to support the case for Heim being John "Barney" Hines there may be other supporting information but these points spring to mind at this moment in time:-

1. Hines’ mother: Dora, Heim’s mother: Dora (see Australian Army record and johnheim.webs.com)

2. Hines’ sister: Mary Thompson, Heim’s sister: Mary Thompson (see Australian Army record and johnheim.webs.com)

3. Hines’ family address: 23 Eldon Place Liverpool, Heim’s sister Rose Ann Cleary was at that address in 1915 (see Australian Army record and johnheim.webs.com)

4. Hines’ First criminal record gives his date of birth as 12 October, Heim’s Royal Navy record gives his date of birth as 12 October (see NSW Criminal record 14800 and johnheim.webs.com)

5. Hines was in the British Army, Royal Navy and a merchant seaman so was Heim (see johnheim.webs.com)

6. Hines first appears on record in 1904, Heim disappears from records c1901 (see johnheim.webs.com)

7. Hines' appearance and character match Heim (see Hines' NSW criminal records 14800 & 17589, Australian Army record and Heim's Royal Navy record on johnheim.webs.com)C3MC2 (talk) 12:03, 10 March 2018 (UTC)

Correction to point 6 above Heim/Hines appears as John Heims on Liverpool Electoral Registers, available to view on the Ancestry website, at court 6 house 5 Silvester Street in 1902-03 and 1903-04. He doesn't appear on any Liverpool records after 1903-04. His next appearance on record is as John Hines in New Zealand in November 1904 (see johnheim.webs.com and NSW criminal record 14800).C3MC2 (talk) 13:37, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

I've attempted a new edit with the real background information backed by sources due to the lack of progress on putting this article right. The conflict between old outdated information and new correct information needed to be addressed.C3MC2 (talk) 10:04, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

G'day, I think a better approach would be to contrast the sources, rather than removing the others like you have. Please remember, that the other sources are WP:RS, and our job is not to choose one over the other, but to summarise what all reliable sources say. If the sources disagree, state this, and then outline what they all say, with citations. You appear to have added two uncited paragraphs to the Early life section, which I would ask you to add references to. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 10:27, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

G'day, I've tried to address your concerns with a rewrite with sources. The problem with some of the older material about Hines is they are not supported by reliable evidence. Saying you were born in 1873 when there is no evidence in the English records for such a birth or baptism is not reliable. References to service should also be backed up by records or some sort of evidence. There is no evidence in the service records for Hines, only evidence for him as Heim, for the British Army in 1895 and the Royal Navy in 1896. Hines had a history of giving false information such as his age so we can't just let what he said be taken as proof. I agree we should mention what was thought true and contrast it with what we can prove to be true. There is a wealth of information showing that Hines was Heim and we should not shy away from documenting the true events of his early life, whether or not his German background, criminal history or forgotten wife and children detract somewhat from the appeal of the man.C3MC2 (talk) 14:45, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for adding the references; can you please add full bibliographic details? For instance, dates of publication, title of the article, publishers, authors etc. Regardless, I think we need to be careful here with how we use some of these sources, though. Scottie Press appears to be a community newspaper. Are we sure that it meets the requirements of WP:RS? Does the author have any specific qualifications that make them authoritative? Equally, care needs to be taken with regards to the primary sources used (the Army service record and the NSW Archives). Per WP:RSPRIMARY "all interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source, rather than original analysis of the primary-source material by Wikipedia editors". Currently, I feel that potentially we might be straying towards our own analysis here, and not that of a reliable secondary source. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 04:04, 31 July 2018 (UTC)

@C3MC2: were you involved in the Scottie Press story? I agree that it's not likely to be a RS for this topic. Nick-D (talk) 22:50, 31 July 2018 (UTC)

Scottie Press is an authority on the district in Liverpool where Hines was born and raised. They are an excellent source helping to fill in the gaps that were in this article about Hines' family background. A number of people have been involved in the new research about Hines' real Liverpool roots and the process of updating his bio on various platforms. Scottie Press made an independent decision to cover the story about the new information and will have independently assessed the reliability of the information and its sources. I've done all I can to update this article with reliable sources. The article was formerly missing details about Hines' early years it was very vague, in particular there was nothing about his parents, other family members, there was nothing about his dubious claim of having Irish parents, no supporting evidence about his service in the British Army and Royal Navy. Can we really revert back to an article with such omissions?C3MC2 (talk) 10:44, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

Are there any external reviews that you can point us to of the Scottie Press, to allow us to confirm the reliability of the work? Are there any details of who the author is and the editors are, and what qualifications they have? Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 11:18, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

You both have doubts about this source and appear to want a source produced by some sort of academic or expert. A request has now been circulated to see if there is someone of such standing interested in doing a study of Hines. That's the best we can do at the moment. Hopefully at some point in the future someone somewhere will pick up on Hines' story and produce something that meets your requirements.C3MC2 (talk) 23:46, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

We already have one: the article by leading Australian military history expert Peter Stanley. There's always room for more though. Nick-D (talk) 00:11, 4 August 2018 (UTC)

It would be a good idea if you or someone else could arrange for Peter Stanley to provide an update on Hines given the new information about his early years that has come to light.C3MC2 (talk) 00:17, 4 August 2018 (UTC)

Peter Stanley appears to be connected to Australian War Memorial an e-mail was sent in March to them and they responded saying that the research had been passed to the team who manage the people profiles. If anyone can do any more to speed things up with an update from Peter Stanley or similar authority then it will improve this article.C3MC2 (talk) 09:19, 4 August 2018 (UTC)

I'm now in contact with Peter Stanley. I've shared the new evidence with him about Hines' early life and the two criminal records that cover the period 1904-1931 in New Zealand and Australia. Hopefully Peter or someone else will take up this new evidence and put something in the public domain to help establish the true facts about Hines' early years.C3MC2 (talk) 18:37, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

Sounds promising. Cheers, AustralianRupert (talk) 11:30, 9 August 2018 (UTC)

Some notes about some of Hines claims. A 1950 newspaper article says he was an AB on HMS Terrible in 1899 when she called in at Capetown. He then claimed to join various forces during the Boer War. He previously claimed in the same article that in 1894 he served in the Royal Navy during the China Rebellion. This may be a reference to the Boxer Rebellion 1899-1901. HMS Terrible was redeployed to China in 1900 during that war. Some of her crew gained entitlement to the Relief of Ladysmith clasp in the Boer War and the Relief of Pekin clasp in China. Hines or Heim(s) does not appear on the list of crew here:- https://www.angloboerwar.com/unit-information/rn-ships/158-hms-terrible?showall=&start=1 It's possible he did go to various places as a merchant seaman but so far he doesn't appear on any Boer War records or lists as a soldier or Royal Navy seaman.C3MC2 (talk) 21:00, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

Another piece of evidence has come to light. If you remember the two NSW Archives criminal records say Hines came to Australia in 1915 on the ship Somerset. UK National Archives has the crew list on its website. Hines is on it under the name J Heim!

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14700447C3MC2 (talk) 22:39, 23 August 2018 (UTC)

A new article about Hines is expected to be published later this year. A big thank you to Peter Stanley for collaborating on this article.C3MC2 (talk) 15:13, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

That's excellent Nick-D (talk) 10:38, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

An article has now been published providing an updated account of Hines's life. The Hidden Life of John 'Barney' Hines by Colin Holland and Peter Stanley was published in Sabretache: The Journal and Proceedings of The Military Historical Society of Australia, vol. LIX, no. 4 - December 2018. A transcript of the article is available to view here: https://merseysidebiographypages.weebly.com/john-hines.html many thanks to Peter Stanley and Sabretache for collaborating on this article.C3MC2 (talk) 15:14, 23 January 2019 (UTC)