Talk:John Hume

Alzheimers

It's known that Hume is sadly suffering from Alzheimers and has been for quite some time. Does anyone have a link confirming this. Exiledone (talk) 10:28, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

Ian Paisley

I asked recently for a citation for the claim "Hume was praised... even by his long-time opponent, fellow MP and MEP, the Rev. Ian Paisley."; the source provided simply says:

Ian Paisley, leader of the anti-Agreement Democratic Unionist party, who has been a prominent political figure for as long as Mr Hume, said he had been "the real life of the SDLP". "It will be a break for them and a break for him," he added.

which hardly constitutes "praise". Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 08:16, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

The reference to Paisley should be removed, it is not praise, nor is it critique. Arnkellow (talk) 10:58, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

I agree, though I'm happy to give it a day or two, to see if anyone can come up with a valid source (better: a sourced quote). Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:18, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

I added the citation (but not the original sentence). In my opinion, calling someone "the real life of" a large and successful organization is definitely a form of praise or at least respect; I couldn't find mention of any other statement by Paisley that could fit. Obviously I think the citation is sufficient, but I'd agree it seems arbitrary to mention Paisley specifically here. FLHerne (talk) 21:26, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

I am in a different opinion, it needs more context to be praise. Out of curiosity, the statements that didn't fit, where they much different in tone? TIA Arnkellow (talk) 12:48, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Derry - Bogside - Tribute to John Hume Mural ( 2008-06-20 ).jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 12:37, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

Nationality

There is no evidence he was a "duel national" [sic], and your attempt do add [[British people|Northern Irish]] to an article about a prominent Irish nationalist politician is highly inappropriate. I suggest you read the Good Friday Agreement, the Government of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the Government of Ireland recognise the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they may so choose. Please seek consensus for your changes instead of edit-warring. Thank you. FDW777 (talk) 07:19, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

Further edits have again removed this information, I am not going to revert, as I will give Northern Hills a chance to explain. I requested protection on this page to stop edit warring as it was starting, also I added the Troubles warning to remind people to talk not revert. Arnkellow (talk) 12:09, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for giving me a chance to explain. Apologies, just wanted to stress that he was from Northern Ireland, will now revert this edit. Northern Hills (talk) 13:27 (UTC)

Yes, the relevant notice is at the top of this page headed "WARNING: ACTIVE ARBITRATION REMEDIES". But many new editors will probably just continue to edit and not know about this Talk page or it's notices. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:24, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

WP:AGF, give them a chance. Also I may be wrong, but some might believe adding from Northern Ireland and Northern Irish is being neutral, while in fact it is not. Arnkellow (talk) 12:27, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

Northern Hills it is understandable. If you still feel like the edit should be left, please talk it over here. Arnkellow (talk) 12:30, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

I have no issue with WP:AGF, but was just suggesting a possible reason for this type of edit. I suspect many new editors just see what's there on the page and decide to change it, without even realising there might be a whole history of past similar edits. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:40, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

Thank you, you're being incredibly generous. However, I've just removed it, I wasn't meaning to be contentious in any way. Perhaps it would be best if the nationality section was just left blank for the time being with the message "Leave blank until ongoing disputes have been resolved and Consensus reached, see talk page". This is the case with C. S. Lewis, another Northern Irishman whose nationality is contentious among editors. Northern Hills (talk) 13:37 (UTC)

There might be a good case for adding a hidden note in that location, so that when an editor decides to edit, they get some direct advice which they will (hopefully) see and follow. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:42, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

I've never understood why people persist in foisting the label "Northern Irish" on people, when the GFA expressly gives people the right to identify and be accepted as Irish (or British, or both, if they are so inclined). FDW777 (talk) 18:53, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

Anyway since John Hume had an Irish passport (subscription required, the relevant quote is He travelled on an Irish passport) I don't seen why he can't be simply described as Irish unless there are objections? FDW777 (talk) 18:59, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

In my experience there are many people who are quite happy and proud to foist the label "Northern Irish" on themselves. I guess we have 330 years of history to partly thank for that. But we must certainly respect the wishes of all those who do not. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:06, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

Very true. But when was the last time there was a similar dispute about a Unionist politician identifying as "British" and people edit warring to insist they have to labelled "Northern Irish" instead? It would appear the "Northern Irish" label is only for nationalists and republicans. FDW777 (talk) 19:11, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

Hmmm, fair point. No wiki surrender!! Martinevans123 (talk) 19:14, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

Would,

"John Hume KCSG (18 January 1937 – 3 August 2020) was an Irish Nationalist politician from Northern Ireland, widely regarded as one of the most important figures in the recent political history of Ireland, as one of the architects of the Northern Ireland peace process."

Be more informative and nuetral?

Also as FDW777 referenced, he was Irish and this should go in the infobox, removal was not reverted but blanked, WP:AGF is not in use on that. Arnkellow (talk) 12:44, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

Since there were no, and since I cannot imagine how there could be, objections to his nationality being added, I have added it to the infobox. I suppose the change suggested by @Arnkellow:, but thought it prudent to leave it for a little while longer before implementing it. FDW777 (talk) 15:12, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

No problem with that suggestion. Yes, looks more informative and neutral. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:50, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

You can thank me re-reading WP:SOB for that suggestion. It conveys he was Irish, a nationalist, and an Irish Nationalist. Arnkellow (talk) 21:48, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

Edit made. Arnkellow (talk) 09:13, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Note to discuss on talkpage also added. Arnkellow (talk) 09:16, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Northern Irish is a geographical descriptor. Everyone born in Northern Ireland is Northern Irish on that basis. Just as everyone born on the island of Ireland is Irish on that basis. The GFA has no bearing on the issue as it refers simply to British and Irish in terms of national citizenship not geographical descriptor. It also doesn't prevent anyone from being both. Indeed quite a few unionists have taken up the Irish passport due to the advantages it affords with no desire of being part of that state or identity.

Being classified as Northern Irish does not prevent someone from being an Irish nationalist or republican. The only reason some of that community would find it inappropriate is that if they used the term it would mean accepting the existence of Northern Ireland something republicans find anathema hence their inability to even utter the name of the country. Moderate nationalists don't care so much.

In the case of stating Hume was a dual national using Northern Irish as one of those nationalities, well that is wrong on the above basis. However he was born in the UK so he is a British national and unless he explicitly renounced his British citizenship he was still one. In regards to being a dual national, he is reported as travelling on his Irish passport so he obviously took up that option. Thus he should be stated as being British and Irish on the infobox nationality line. Failing that leave it blank altogether for why is one alright and the other not? Simply stating they were an Irish nationalist is not a valid reason. Mabuska ^(talk) 10:44, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

That all seems wholly reasonable to me. But I think there may be two separate discussions in this thread - one over the infobox content and one over the wording of the lead section. (But not sure partition of these two would be the best solution, lol). Martinevans123 (talk) 10:56, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Wholly object to any attempt to add "British" without explicit references proving it. FDW777 (talk) 11:10, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Um, you're suggesting that, in 1937, Derry wasn't part of the UK? Martinevans123 (talk) 11:22, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

I don't believe I said that. I object to the proposal since it would apply to everyone born in Northern Ireland, and I can assure you a proposal to add "Nationality: British" (or similar text) to every article will not achieve consensus and would be a giant waste of time. WP:BURDEN will not be reversed by making an assumption and challenging editors to prove otherwise. FDW777 (talk) 11:30, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

I don't believe you said that, either. But you seemed to be suggesting it. I thought most people born in UK are/were "British". I wasn't sure what kind of "proof" from "explicit references" you were seeking. I'm happy to restrict discussion here to just this one article, thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:17, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

I never said you did. I'm objecting to Mabuska's assertion that However he was born in the UK so he is a British national and unless he explicitly renounced his British citizenship he was still one, then suggesting this should be added to the infobox. This argument would clearly apply to everyone from Northern Ireland, thus I believe it is an issue needing a much wider consensus. FDW777 (talk) 12:28, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Then perhaps you'll need to raise that question at a different forum. But it's not an issue that anyone else here has yet raised. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:44, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Mabuska I was on the archives of WP:IMOS last night, your last input on it

"Paisley and McGuinness are most likely stated that without any opposition to obvious political leanings"

The previous discussion went for what was sourced.

And previous to that;

"Common practice is to give the place of birth of people born in the United Kingdom (1801—present) as England, Ireland (or Northern Ireland), Scotland or Wales and as being English, Irish (or Northern Irish), Scottish or Welsh."

And last edit on here you seemed to not object by fact you didn't touch it. Arnkellow (talk) 11:16, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

"However he was born in the UK so he is a British national and unless he explicitly renounced his British citizenship he was still one." He is dead encase you missed it. Arnkellow (talk) 11:24, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

And your first edit also left Irish in. Your call Mabuska, you can say why you suddenly have keen interest, or you can use sources to help with your point of view. Arnkellow (talk) 12:03, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Ad hominem much Arnkellow? Digging up stuff over 8 years old to try to discredit another editors present view is incredibly rediculous considering people's views can change. Also the past discussion on the intros of articles is not what is in question here. It is the infobox nationality parameter. Or am I wrong? Two different things.

And yes I know he is dead. Keep your cheek in check please

Mabuska (talk) 12:30, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

All three edits show the infobox said "Nationality: Irish" at the time. FDW777 (talk) 12:33, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

And? My edits were nothing to do with that so why would I notice what was stated? I also try to not to embark on controversial changes igniting edit wars. However am I not allowed to have an opinion on something that is currently being discussed? Apparently not it seems according to Arnkellow and yourself were ad hominem seems to be the way. Mabuska ^(talk) 12:38, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

I do agree however that such an issue should be addressed at a general place, though we all know how that would go.

At Arnkwllow: do you have a source that states he renounced his British citizenship? Mabuska ^(talk) 12:41, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Where is the personal attack? Please, because claiming a personal attack while there is none is a personal attack. So show it or withdraw your comment. Arnkellow (talk) 12:45, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

To clarify;

"As a matter of polite and effective discourse, arguments should not be personalized; that is, they should be directed at content and actions rather than people."

My comments were on content and actions, were as you Mabuska was an accusations of person attacks from myself and FDW777. Show me where I have attcked you or withdraw the statement. Arnkellow (talk) 13:23, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Who said anything about a personal attack committed by anyone? That seems like a way to deflect the issue at hand. If you feel that my pointing out of your ad hominem in trying to use ancient discussions and past edits to this article to discredit my opinion here then by all means report me to AN/I. Though how about you discuss the points I made instead like a reasonable person would.

Why did I not do anything about the nationality parameter in past edits? Because I don't care what nationality someone is, but I will argue rationale over POV in a discussion on it as one is being cherrypicked over another.

Whilst I disagree with fDW333s personal view, I do agree that there would be problems on Wikipedia if such a change was adopted. Noone suggested we even go that route. I only voiced my opinion. Then again as I said, I don't see why one should have a right and the other one not when it comes to the parameter and i'd be more than happy if we just left it blank instead for all people from Northern Ireland. That way there'd be no more arguing over it. The lede stating that someone is an Irish nationalist from Northern Ireland or is a unionist from the same implies enough. Mabuska ^(talk) 16:05, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Actually I will strike out my claims of ad hominem Arnkellow. Having looked at the old IMOS discussions you listed and realising I wasn't even involved in some of them as far as I can see, those discussions couldn't be used in that way. So my apologies on that. The rest of your initial comment towards me I can't really tell if it could be classified as such, but it was non-AGF in questioning my right to have a view on this discussion and my past edits.

In regards to those past discussions as already stated and with less words, they are not about the nationality parameter in the infobox. They are about the lede of an article, which I don't think is the issue here, and about how to pipelink Ireland. Not relevant as neither are to do with citizenship. Mabuska ^(talk) 16:51, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

And even if we were to include Northern Irish in the nationality parameter (not proposing it), piping it to British People is wrong. Instead People from Northern Ireland is the usual piped to article for Northern Irish people. Mabuska ^(talk) 16:57, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Perhaps we can restrict our objections to proposals that people have actually made here. And not object to the (theoretically infinite number of) proposals not made by anyone here, or possibly even anywhere else? But I agree that People of Northern Ireland might be a more useful pipped link in that case. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:11, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Just to clarify only in regards the lede. Whilst it is typically used as [[People of Northern Ireland|Northern Irish]] in some article ledes there is no reason as to why it couldn't be piped as [[People of Northern Ireland|from Northern Ireland]] rather than simply direct linking to Northern Ireland. The article does address the issue of personal identity for people from NI and what it refers to. But such a suggestion would need discussed and agreed upon at the relevant WikiProject rather than simply on a single article talk page.

The issue on the nationality parameter also needs addressed at the WikiProject as it is wrong to cherry pick one's nationality (as in citizenship not ethnic identity) based on a mention of someone using an Irish passport etc., when that doesn't discount them also having British citizenship, which they were born with. Also being an Irish nationalit does not automatically mean that a person can't have British citizenship. There are quite a few unionists who hold an Irish passport (for the benefits it profits abroad) making them Irish citizens but no less unionist. They are not mutually exclusive. That's why the parameter would be better left blank for NI people to save the rehashing of past arguments. Mabuska ^(talk) 17:42, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Mabuska Thank you for striking the comments. Arnkellow (talk) 18:17, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

The Irish constitution has since 1937 given the same level of citizenship to those in Northern Ireland as those in the Republic. So saying British citizenship trumps Irish citizenship is not a neutral approach. I have asked from input at IMOS, so hopefully a more rounded discussion can be given. Arnkellow (talk) 18:59, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

I know that but it has to be claimed, no? I did not say one trumps the other (matter of opinion though) but when someone is born with British citizenship unless they renounce it they still hold it. Unless we initiate a freedom of information request in regards to selected people from NI to see whether they have renounced their British citizenship we should not be deciding for them. As suggested several times already we'd be better leaving such parameters blank on all NI people.Mabuska ^(talk) 20:16, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Unless we initiate a freedom of information request in regards to selected people from NI to see whether they have renounced their British citizenship we should not be deciding for them. Many thanks for confirming you don't actually know either way, and thus your own assumptions don't meet WP:V. FDW777 (talk) 20:18, 10 August 2020 (UTC)