Talk:John J. Crittenden

Needs succession boxes for Senate?

The article mentions that he was a member of the U.S. Senate over the course of several years, yet there is no succession box for this. There is for Attorney General and Gov. of Kentucky. Not sure why. Too involved?--FeanorStar7 14:17, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:John J. Crittenden/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Courcelles 03:46, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Okay, the fact that I'm not seeing anything actually wrong with this article is giving me pause. Couple things for tonight after ten minutes or so of looking through it.

"He declared his candidacy for re-election to in 1863, but died before the election took place." Missing a word here.

Two words actually. Fixed.

"Coleman, vol. 1, p. 21" or "Coleman, vol. I, p. 15"? (Is it volume I or 1?)

I prefer the Roman numeral, despite the fact that I used the Arabic numeral more frequently. Fixed.

Are you actually using Coleman Vol II for anything? If not, it should be moved down to a further reading section.

I did at one time, but I guess it got swallowed up when I came through adding more details from the Kirwan biography. Moved to "Further reading".

Ref 135 needs "fixing"

Should have been done earlier. Changed to a more reliable source.

I did some dash things myself, since they're easier to do than explain. Just make sure I didn't break anything.

Believe me; I won't complain about anyone fixing my dashes. Those things drive me nuts.

I've printed it out, so will give it a full, hard read tomorrow. Courcelles 04:02, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Appreciate the initial comments. Don't know how my time will run this weekend, but I'll try to get back to respond to any further suggestions by Monday at the latest. Acdixon ^{(talk • contribs • count)} 12:01, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

• Two dab links, John B. Thompson and At large.
  • Fixed.
• "At age seventeen, Crittenden moved to the Lexington, Kentucky home of Judge George M. Bibb to study law.[5] He began his collegiate studies at Washington College (now Washington and Lee University) in Lexington, Virginia." What's the time-line here?
  • Now that I'm looking back at it, I'm having a hard time figuring it out myself. Howard says Crittenden entered Pisgah Academy in 1803, and Kirwan says all the Crittenden children attended Pisgah for a year, so I figure he was there until sometime in 1804. Kirwan then mentions a boarding school at Jessamine County, which some of the other sources omit. Kirwan mentions that Crittenden formed fast friendships with some of his fellow students there, though, so I assume his stay was non-trivial. Taylor says Crittenden began studying under Bibb at age seventeen, which by my math would have had to be after September 1804. That doesn't leave much time for him to be in Jessamine County before going to study with Bibb. Kirwan then says that he matriculated to Washington College; he doesn't give a date, but says he stayed there two years. Even if he only stayed with Bibb until the beginning of 1805, that still puts it early in 1807 before he left Washington College and went to William and Mary. Here's where it gets really problematic. Kirwan says he left for William and Mary in autumn 1804, at least two and a half years earlier than the events already accounted for. Kirwan also says that Crittenden had probably been at William and Mary for a year and was entering his second year there when his father died, which occurred sometime prior to October 1806. He puts Crittenden's graduation from William and Mary in June 1807.

All the sources seem to agree on an 1807 graduation from William and Mary. Kirwan is the most extensive, and probably most reliable source, so working backward from the widely agreed-upon date of 1807, we have him at William and Mary from autumn 1804 (per Kirwan) to June 1807. If he was also at Washington College for two years, that probably means he started in autumn 1802. That's before Howard even has him at Pisgah Academy. The rest of the timeline is plausible, and would put him in boarding school at around age fourteen and probably at Pisgah around age thirteen, right around the turn of the century. That requires us to throw out Howard's date and Taylor's age assertions, though. I'm not sure what to make of all that.

I think the best way forward- and FAC may crucify me for suggesting this- is to lay out events in order, and then leave a footnote that explains the ambiguity in the timeline among the various sources. If the only thing you have hard dates for are graduation from W&M in 1807, and being made Illinois Attorney General in 1809, then that's all you have, and the rest is a little muddled, then so be it. Ambiguity in sources just needs to be explained somewhere. Graduating from college and being admitted to the bar at age 20 sounds young, but that is more than likely me putting a modern paradigm on things. Courcelles 04:39, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

I've done the best I can with this; see what you think. Acdixon ^{(talk • contribs • count)} 17:18, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

• "served as the second-ever chairman of the newly created U.S. Senate Committee on Judiciary." Isn't it the "Committee on the Judiciary"?
  • Yep. Fixed.
• "He found state politics more interesting, however." That's a sentence fragment
  • Fixed.
• "Crittenden debated the issue at length with Senator Benton, and Congress ultimately passed a bill requiring the government to accept the notes of specie-paying banks for the purchase of government lands, but President Jackson employed his pocket veto to prevent it from becoming law.[55]" The timeline is unclear here, you've already mentioned Van Buren, but this took place during Jackson's reign? A few more dates throughout the article, including for the various President's reigns, would be useful.
  • I've moved the bit about Jackson's pocket veto up a bit to make it fit chronologically. The rest of the section should be considered a topical summary of Crittenden's tenure, not a chronological listing, as I don't have many specific events to tie his positions to.
• "This law established guidelines for several public officials regarding their administration the common schools." Another missing word here.
  • Fixed.
• "Crittenden served as attorney general until the expiration of Fillmore's term 1853." Ditto
  • Fixed.
• File:GBCrittenden.jpg needs a working source and proof of the author being dead 100 years.
  • I didn't upload this, but I'll try to track down the source. However, given that this was Crittenden in a military uniform, it was most likely taken pre-1865, so I can't imagine how the author wouldn't have been dead more than 100 years.
    • The source wouldn't fly at FAC, but for GAN we just need a new tag. From our article about U.S. copyright, "Works published or registered before 1978 currently have a maximum copyright duration of 95 years from the date of publication". So, it is clearly PD, just needs a different tag. Courcelles 04:39, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
      • Good info regarding this copyright quirk. I think I've used the right tag this time. I found another image of G.B. Crittenden which is nebulously credited as being from the Library of Congress, but lacks further attribution. I've emailed the webmaster for more details, but haven't heard anything yet. I've also changed the source to an archive.org link so at least folks can see what the source used to look like. Acdixon ^{(talk • contribs • count)} 17:18, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
• "a conference was held to decide the Kentucky's course" the Kentucky?
  • I think I originally wrote "the state's". Fixed.
• "Among his other notable kinsmen were nephews Thomas Theodore Crittenden, congressman from Missouri, and Thomas Turpin Crittenden a general in the Union Army. The town of Crittenden, Kentucky and Crittenden County, Kentucky are named for him.[135]" Given the totally different subjects of these sentences, does cite 135 cover both of them?
  • No. I could cite Thomas Theodore to the Congressional Directory, but I'm not sure Thomas Turpin is covered in any of the present bibliography.
    • Well, this is goign to need to be cited from somewhere :) Courcelles 04:39, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
      • I think I've found an acceptable source. Acdixon ^{(talk • contribs • count)} 17:18, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

That's all from me. Nice article. Courcelles 16:37, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

• Thanks for the review. Acdixon ^{(talk • contribs • count)} 18:39, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Works for me. Passed, though now I've got to learn how to do the paperwork with the new method of running GAN! Courcelles 17:39, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

Senate age requirement?

The article says, "In 1814, Governor Shelby appointed Crittenden to fill the U.S. Senate seat vacated by his former teacher, George M. Bibb; later, however, Shelby learned that Crittenden was only twenty-seven years old, three years shy of the constitutional age requirement for senators.[18] Hence he returned to his seat in the Kentucky House, where was elected speaker over John Rowan.[19]" However, when Crittenden actually joined the Senate, he was still only 29. How was this allowed? (Or did I miss an explanation elsewhere?) Ardric47 (talk) 00:17, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

9 years on, but if you're still wondering:

United States Senate#Qualifications

"...During its early years, however, the Senate did not closely scrutinize the qualifications of its members. As a result, four senators who failed to meet the age requirement were nevertheless admitted..." (1 of which crittendon)

it is ironic -- clay could have just left him in place the first time! 2601:19C:527F:A660:19D4:23AE:956C:F5C1 (talk) 07:06, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

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Issue

Rather unusual not to name all his children, with their dates. Valetude (talk) 21:56, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

Slave tallies

Crittenden owned ten enslaved people, all mulattos (females aged 60, 25, 21, 18 and 16 and males aged 28, 16, 14, 10 and 1).

How is this notable? These tallies are being increasingly featured in wiki pages, sounding like a rap-sheet. Clearly they are being inserted by editors with an agenda, and should be discouraged. Valetude (talk) 05:19, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

Tend to agree. These tallies are based on WP:PRIMARY sources, and commenting on them in this level of detail without them being mentioned in WP:SECONDARY sources seems to violate WP:UNDUE. Acknowledging Crittenden as a slaveholder is likely warranted - going into this level of detail is not. @Valetude: If you are seeing a pattern of this across multiple pages from one or a small group of editors, an WP:RFC may be warranted to establish a broader consensus, rather than tackling the issue on individual talk pages. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 15:28, 5 November 2021 (UTC)