Talk:John Lennon/Archive 14

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Correct grammy year

Double Fantasy won Album of the Year at the Grammys in 1982, not 1981.[1] 2A00:23C7:1104:F601:A1BE:310B:E1A0:5C81 Please correct (talk) 09:28, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

Perhaps, but the 24th Grammy Awards "recognized the accomplishments of musicians during the year 1981", so the year is debatable. More discussion needed. WWGB (talk) 10:15, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

I really don't see how this is debatable. Yes the grammys recognizes the accomplishments of musicians during the previous year; and that's why award show is held in February the following year and awarded in that year. Christopher Cross won Album of the Year in 1981.[2] You can't have 2 winners here.--2A00:23C7:1104:F601:A1BE:310B:E1A0:5C81 (talk) 10:34, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit semi-protected}} template. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 13:32, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

https://www.grammy.com/awards/24th-annual-grammy-awards As per The Grammys, he won the 1981 Grammy Award in February 1982. Let's move on.Hotcop2 (talk) 19:51, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

https://www.grammy.com is not listed as a WP:RS. As the Grammy source says "awarded to John Lennon and Yoko Ono’s Double Fantasy album. “I really don’t know what to say,” said Ono" [3] Reliable sources; The Washington Post [4] The New York Times [5] confirm they won the 1982 Grammy Award; not 1981. There was already a winner for 1981, which is already on the Grammy Award for Album of the Year article. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammy_Award_for_Album_of_the_Year#1980s --TheMaster077 (talk) 21:10, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

Will also leave this here. (The Washington Post; January 13, 1982) "Recording stars Quincy Jones, Lionel Richie and John Lennon received the most nominations today for the 24th annual Grammy Awards -- the music industry's top honors." https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/lifestyle/1982/01/13/richie-lennon-jones-lead-grammy-nominees/bc55f71b-e989-4ec0-af12-a3b2cb40a95a/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by TheMaster077 (talk • contribs) 21:18, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

One of the reasons by the way the grammy source was unreliable is they said in the source [6] "A new wind was blowing in the music industry: MTV launched the previous year (Aug. 1, 1981)" and they listed this the 1981 Grammys? It's a simple mistake. That's why we use reliable sources instead. --TheMaster077 (talk) 21:25, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

Christopher Cross won the 1980 best album grammy AWARDED IN 1981. If that bothers you, change his article. The above cite states Quincy, Lionel and John won the award in 1982, which they did. ALL FOR 1981 RELEASES, except Double Fantasy which came out too late for 1980. It won the following year 1981. Hotcop2 (talk) 21:37, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

He won it 1981 and was awarded that year. That's how the Grammy Award of the year works. They honour his achievements of the previous year or two, but he wins it the following year or two and is awarded. I can't change his article as that's not what the reliable sources state. --TheMaster077 (talk) 21:40, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

(The New York Times; Feb 26, 1981) https://www.nytimes.com/1981/02/26/arts/4-grammy-awards-won-by-christopher-cross.html "Mr. Cross, who called the evening a dream come true, ::won for record of the year" He won it in 1981, not in 1980. Please just forget the title of the award which is confusing you and read the year he won it. --TheMaster077 (talk) 22:07, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

The album Cross one for was released December 1979, too late for the 1979 award, which aired in February 1980. Cross was nominated for and won the 1980 grammy which aired in February 1981. That's how it works. It was released too late for 1980 inclusion, so it was nominated and won the 1981 Grammy which in February 1982. Lennon's 1980 album wasn't to skip a year to win for 1982. This is like really simple. Hotcop2 (talk) 21:55, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

I figured out what the confusion is here. When the press refers to the "1979 Grammy Winners" they're referring to the award ceremony, not to the award. "Last night Liza showed up the 1976 Grammies" refers to the tv broadcast, not the awards. The awards are for releases January thru Oct (and any November and December releases from the previous year). Double Fantasy was released in November, past the cut-off for 1980 awards. They won the 1981 award which aired February 1982. Again, it's 1982 Grammys but the awards are for the previous year and Nov Dec leftovers. Hotcop2 (talk) 22:08, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

We're in the process of voting now for the February 2024 awards, which are for albums, singles, productions released Jan - Oct 2023. So the next award show is for albums released 2023 win for that year, despite the 2024 show. Hotcop2 (talk) 22:24, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

The 24th Annual Grammy Awards were held on February 24, 1982, at the Shrine Auditorium in Los Angeles. The event recognized the accomplishments of musicians during the past year to year and a half. Double Fantasy won Grammy Award for Album of the Year that year. Album of the Year is just a title, but they won the award in 1982.[7] Unless you can show me a reliable source that states otherwise, this should not be changed. --TheMaster077 (talk) 22:30, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

. since there would be 10 more months of 1982, I doubt they'd decide so soon.

this is how the shit works https://www.grammy.com/news/2024-grammys-air-date-nominations-day-show-announcement-66th-grammy-awards Hotcop2 (talk) 22:45, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

Further reading; Recording stars Quincy Jones, Lionel Richie and John Lennon received the most nominations today (Jan 13, 1982) [8] There is no way in your words "They won the 1981 award which aired February 1982" when they only began nominating in January 1982. They won the 1982 award for Grammy Album of the Year. Prove me wrong with a reliable source otherwise lets end this. --TheMaster077 (talk) 22:43, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

Suggestion: since the year is in dispute, can the statements be amended to instead mention the award was given at the 24th Grammy Awards instead? Echoedmyron (talk) 22:45, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

Honestly with this headache i am fine with that. TheMaster077 (talk) 22:45, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

"There is no evidence of him ever having struck a woman again."

Hello. Great article.

I was perplexed by this uncited addition to the section about Cynthia Lennon found here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Lennon#Cynthia_Lennon. Simply put, how does one verify that there is "no evidence"? The sentence also comes off as editorialized, or idealistic fan cruft to punctuate the preceding sentence about "Getting Better" being a song about overcoming Lennon's tendency for domestic violence. I suggest omitting this sentence altogether and leaving this paragraph to the facts as described by the sentences with citations. Kebw (talk) 12:12, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

I guess one would trawl through newspaper reports and court records to ensure that he had not subsequently been the subject of domestic violence accusations. And that would be WP:OR. But yes, "no evidence of him ever having struck a woman again" is not evidence that he definitely did not ever strike a woman again. So it's WP:UNDUE. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:35, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Ashes Ashes we all fall

There are 20 new Beatle books a year....so there's gotta be something new in them to sell, right? The whereabouts of Lennon's ashes, despite being sourced from a recent book, remain officially undisclosed, according to Elliot Mintz in the even more recent Apple TV documentary Lennon: Murder Without a Trial and should be removed. Just because something is in a book doesn't make it true -- or even correct Hotcop2 (talk) 18:18, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

Currently the article very clearly says: "His remains were cremated at Ferncliff Cemetery in Hartsdale, New York. Ono scattered his ashes in New York's Central Park, where the Strawberry Fields memorial was later created." The source given is page 510 of Harry, Bill (2000). The John Lennon Encyclopedia. Virgin. ISBN 978-0-7535-0404-8. Are you disputing this claim? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:23, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I'm disputing it. Julian knows nothing about it (personal research) and Elliot, who would know more than Bill Harry, just stated so as well. Yoko, who would make an event out of anything, keeps this private as well. I realize it's sourced, and the cremation part is correct (we didn't need a 2000 book to mention it for the 90th time) but there plenty sourced things that simply are either incorrect or simply not true. And while we're at it, this entire page has so much minutiae and unimportant excruciating detail that isn't "encyclopediac" or important. Nobody's wiki article talks about great uncles, cousins or every little town someone's been too, etc. Hotcop2 (talk) 20:34, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

If you have any alternative published source(s), as reliable as the Harry book, which contradict what he says, you are welcome to present them. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:37, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

The location of the ashes, if even mentioned in any other book, states unknown. The Harry book gave us the bombshell revelation. Elliot Mintz on camera says so in the 2023 Apple TV documentary Lennon: Murder Without A Trial I should think Elliot, who's not selling anything, would be a more reliable source than Bill Harry.Hotcop2 (talk) 20:53, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

You're saying that all other books about Lennon, that mention his death, say that the location of his ashes is "unknown". How many are there, exactly? Are any of them already used as sources in this article? I'm sorry to say I know nothing about Elliot Mintz. But I see that, like Bill Harry, he's a notable individual. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:24, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

The first "book" mention of the scattering of ashes in NYC is Bill Harry's. Most others stop at the murder, few mention cremation. Fred Seaman confirmed that he was under the bed at the Dakota in 1981. Since, there have been years of speculation; the nicest rumor being his remains were buried with his mother in Liverpool. It was always kept private and rightfully so. That's why I was surprised to see it up there and took it off two years ago, but it was reverted because there was no contradiction -- until November when Elliot Mintz, Yoko and John's friend made that statement in the documentary. I'm certain that future Lennon books will repeat this assertion now that it's out, but the two most recent books-- by Philip Norman and James Patterson make no mention. Hotcop2 (talk) 23:37, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

Many thanks for explaining. You are obviously much closer to the sources than am I. I think you might be justified in adding something like "According to biographer Bill Harry..." to that claim and/or adding a footnote to say that no other book sources say anything. We don't need to add any rumours, however nice. But I'd strongly recommend getting input from other editors before making any decision. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:32, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

"Increasing innovation"

"as his songs became known for their increasing innovation."

This doesn't seem to make sense to me or at least seems unclear in its meaning. Can't think of any alternatives though, except for scrapping that part, as the first part of the sentence already says that Lennon began "incorporating experimental elements into his compositions". Any suggestions?

"for being increasingly innovative" would be another option. Another problem is that it sounds subjective. Should be "they were increasingly considered innovative" or something like that.

Dornwald (talk) 21:15, 26 March 2024 (UTC)