Talk:John Monks

Requested move

The following is a closed discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was not moved. The individual is well known by his personal name and WP:NCPEER is quite clear that we should therefore use that name rather than the title. --rgpk (comment) 17:48, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

John Monks → John Monks, Baron Monks of Blackley.

Oppose - Known for being a a trade unionsit and not as apeer . Also the name John Monks redirects here over other disambiguations showing this John Monks is the primary topic.--Lucy-marie (talk) 18:19, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Support. WP:NCPEER is quite clear. This chap is no longer wholly or exclusively known by his pre-peerage nomenclature. Kittybrewster ☎ 15:15, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Oppose. Quite a rare dissent by me on this kind of question, but a scan of google news find that he is always referred to in the press as "John Monks". I haven't yet, after only a few minutes of searching admittedly, found a single reference to him anywhere as Lord Monks or anything similar. I should note that I think that WP:NCPEER is wrong on this point, and that we should move virtually all of them, but I'm voting in line with how I see current policy.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 18:08, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Oppose - he is exclusively known by his pre-peerage nomenclature (other than in a few formal documents, and we use common names, not formal names). The peerage guideline allows for exceptions, this is a clear-cut case for one. Warofdreams talk 20:25, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

• Support. Former politicians who have been ennobled are almost invariably known by their titles thereafter. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:32, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

He's a trade unionist, not a politician. Ennobled trade unionists have only rarely become known by their titles. Besides, we're not a crystal ball. Warofdreams talk 15:36, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose trade unionists are generally anti-class individuals. 64.229.101.119 (talk) 06:38, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

Comment - This is not a Crystal Ball and what they are currently known is what we have to take as the current commonly used name. If in the future the individual is known regularly by their ennobled title then that would be grounds to change the article title. To though say, it is expected that the names they are known by will change is not how things work on Wikipeida.--Lucy-marie (talk) 17:35, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

Comment - I think this is an misapplication of WP:CRYSTAL. For most peers there is virtually no doubt that they will be known most commonly by their title. For this particular peer, I take no strong view. However, given the what happens in the overwhelming majority of cases, given WP:NCPEER, etc., the burden of proof is in the other direction.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 18:02, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Reply to Jimbo Wales What is basis against waiting until the common name actually changes? Stating it is expected this will happen, Such as assuming the name change will happen is a violation WP:CRYSTAL, as we wait for things to actually happen before implementing the change, no matter how likely it is to happen, unless it is a certainty which in these cases it is not a certainty. To quote the first line of point 1 of WP:CRYSTAL, Individual scheduled or expected future events should only be included if the event is notable and almost certain to take place. In Peerage cases the expected future event is the common name will change, there is though no certainty any Peer will be known by their ennobled title, it is just a likelihood. So no I do not believe WP:CRYSTAL has been misapplied here in anyway.--Lucy-marie (talk) 20:38, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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