Talk:John S. McCain Jr.

Father

His Father, John S. McCain, Sr. was also an admiral (the only father-son pair of full admirals in US history). [02:21, May 31, 2005 Tony619]

His father was senior USN aviation officer in SWPA in July 1942, & head of BuAer in August 1943. I do Q if DDG-56 is named for Junior McCain, tho; I'd bet she was named for JSM Sr, who was long dead by then. Trekphiler 06:02 & 06:05 & 06:32, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

DDG-56 was actually named for both Admirals McCain. McCain Sr. was actually a Vice Admiral when he died, but was retroactively promoted to Admiral effective the date of his death.

Also, while McCain Jr. might have been the first son of a four-star admiral to also become a four-star admiral when he was first promoted in 1967, there have since been at least two other father-son four-star admiral pairs. David Worth Bagley Sr. was placed on the retired list with rank of Admiral in 1947; his son David Worth Bagley Jr. was CINCUSNAVEUR from 1972-1975. James L. Holloway Jr. was CINCNELM/COMSCOMLANTFLT from 1958-1959; his son James L. Holloway III was CNO from 1974-1978. Morinao 18:04, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Sam! Rewrite!

I rewrote this:

"commanded the submarines USS Gunnel and Dentuda. "

to this:

"during the Torch landings. Like many U.S. subs in the Pacific, Gunnel was attcked in error by friendly aircraft. McCain had no end of trouble with the Hoover-Owens-Rentschler (H.O.R.) diesels (which were so troublesome, in the Pacific, Sub Force members called them "whores"); at one point enroute, drive gears of all four of Gunnel's main engines go out of commission, and McCain had to rely on his tiny auxiliary for the last 1800km (1000nm). Gunnel went into the navy yard for extensive extensive refit, and was replaced on patrol station off North Africa by Pilly Lent's Haddo)."

I base this on Blair, Silent Victory, p265-6. Trekphiller 08:30, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I also added this

"In June 1943, McCain on his second patrol covered the East China and Yellow Seas. He was "fearlessly aggressive", sinking two ships (confirmed postwar by JANAC): Koyo Maru (6400 tons) and Tokiwa Maru (7000 tons). Yet the return of troubles from his H.O.R. diesels cut the patrol to only eleven days, after which he was compelled to return to Pearl Harbor. In two patrols, his contribution to the defeat of Japan had been slight.

"Yet Gunnel would be the first Pearl Harbor H.O.R. boat re-engined and returned to action, off Iwo Jima in December 1943]]). Alerted by Hypo of carriers, McCain lived a submariner's dream on the night of 2-3 December, getting a setup on Zuiho at a very long range of 5500m (6000yd, 3nm), only to have it ruined as Zuiho zigged toward. McCain fired four bow tubes, but scored no hits.; he was still one of only a handful of U.S. skippers for the duration of the war to get such an opportunity. On his third patrol, on 18 March 1944 off Tawi Tawi, the main Japanese fleet anchorage in the Philippines, he got an amazing second shot at a carrier, firing from extremely long range (8200m {9000yd}); it came as no surprise when he missed and was counterattacked, facing a desultory sixteen depth charges. Then, after lying in wait four days, he had an astonishing third chance, on this same carrier; he got no closer than 10km (5.5nm).

"During the May 1944 U.S. air strike on Surabaya, Gunnel lay off Tawi Tawi, in company with Robert Olsen's Angler. McCain had no success, and moved to the coast of Indochina afterward, where on 8 June 1944, he picked up a convoy, escorted, incredibly, by yet another aircraft carrier. He proved unable to approach closer than his contact range, about 28km (15nm). On his return, he was detached to new construction. In five patrols, his contribution to the defeat of Japan had been slight."

I base it on Blair, Silent Victory, as noted. Trekphiller 08:40, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

::OK, there's been some kind of glitch. Hit "edit" to see what I really added... Trekphiller 08:42, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

References

Completeness

This article uses only one source and doesn't cover anything outside of his involvement in World War II in a meaningful way. Much of what content exists is informal in tone and drifts into conjecture and low-value side commentary.--Rem01 10:31, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm in command here

I'm not sure if there's a guideline on this, but putting McCain's most senior commands first strikes me as stupid. It implies he went from CinCPac to Gunnel, obviously wrong... TREKphiler ^{hit me ♠} 08:30, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

I checked a few others (like Nimitz, Halsey), and they were in chrono order, so I changed it here. Wasted Time R (talk) 04:06, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

A sensible approach. Thanks. TREKphiler ^{hit me ♠} 04:22, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Who are you?

Am I missing something? This

isn't about Jack McCain. So why's it on the main page? TREKphiler ^{hit me ♠} 04:05, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

It's a nagivation template for all the articles on subjects related to John McCain. It appears at the bottom of all the articles mentioned in the template. This article, being about his father, is one of them. Wasted Time R (talk) 04:13, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Gotcha. I do find it a bit odd it's here... And did I misread the webpage saying the writer was with a newspaper? TREKphiler ^{hit me ♠} 04:49, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

You'll see similar templates at the bottom of Hugh Ellsworth Rodham and Barack Obama, Sr., just as a couple of other examples. As for the http://www.mccain.navy.mil/Site%20Pages/namesake.aspx page, it doesn't say who the writer is, but from the last page it's one of his children, probably John but perhaps Joe. Wasted Time R (talk) 04:57, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Follow up - I've changed the template to always start as being collapsed, because sometimes it was coming up as expanded, and seeing the picture of the 'wrong' John McCain was very jarring. Wasted Time R (talk) 04:37, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Time in a bottle

Was McCain abd Skipjack (then CO by Larry Freeman, sez Blair, Silent Victory, p.164) while she was with SubDiv 15? In '40, she was in Pearl while R/A Wilhelm L. Friedell was ComSubPac (& his Chief of Staff was Charles Lockwood); ComSubDiv 15 was this SOB. (Blair, p.76.) In 10/41, SubDiv 15 (CO by "Sunshine" Murray) was transferred to ComSubAsiatic Fleet (soon to be under Captain "Red" Doyle, embarked in Holland), along with Joe Connolly's SubDiv 16, making SubRon 2. (Blair, p.82.) TREKphiler ^{hit me ♠} 06:52, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Famous American Admirals says: "After teaching electrical engineering at the Naval Academy (1938-40), he cruised in the Skipjack (SS-184) between Hawaii and California until April 1941 when he, as skipper, recommissioned the O-8 (SS-69) for New London training." It doesn't say what his position was on Skipjack – by implication, he was not CO, but it doesn't even say if he was XO – and it doesn't say what Submarine Division this was. Wasted Time R (talk) 11:37, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

I can't source it, but it's a good bet he was XO of Skipjack if his next station was CO of O-8, maybe Engineer Officer, based on his schooling; he'd probably have been a Lt., which'd be right to command an O-boat for training at New London, & I'd say (based on Beach's Run SIlent, Run Deep) jumping to CO even of an O-boat is a long shot for an EO.

Also, Blair puts Skipjack in SubDiv 15 at Pearl from at least summer '40 to 10/41. TREKphiler ^{hit me ♠} 12:31 & 12:40, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

(venting) The US Army, Marines, and Air Force take special effort to publicize the careers of their successful general officers. Why is it so hard to find out biographical details about US Navy admirals? Cla68

Good morning, Vietnam!

I found the Lt Cdr/service in 'nam a bit overwrought, so I del Vietnam. Also, JSM3 wasn't strictly in 'nam, he was abd Mighty O (OK, fussy). And this page is for the father, so too much detail is OT. I think the link to JSM3 & POW is enough. Anybody who can get it in more clearly, without making a separate 'graph, is probably a better writer than me. ;D Pat Sajak ^{spin the d*amn wheel, already} 18:47, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

I was trying to get a linked reference to Vietnam War in ahead of the shoot-down over North Vietnam language, and so constructed a very unwieldy sentence (hardly my first!) I've now put in some other material about Vietnam that serves the same purpose. As for relevance to topic, JSM3 is certainly relevant to JSM Jr's biographical story, especially as they are so much alike in many areas of personality/character/career and so different in a few. I've expanded the article with lots and lots of lots of JSM Jr material that has nothing to do with his son, but I won't shy away from bringing in his son where it's relevant and where other biographers do it too. Wasted Time R (talk) 01:52, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

I won't say a mention is OT, where appropriate. Junior's reaction to III's being POW & the visits to the DMZ, yeah, no sweat. It just struck me this particular case was trying to cram in too much at once, & it seemed to veer OT a bit. TREKphiler ^{hit me ♠} 17:05, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Authorship of "Namesake" piece

Based upon a request at the MILHIST A-Class review of this article, I contacted the webmaster at USS John S. McCain (DDG-56) to see if we could find out for sure who the author of this "Namesake" piece at the ship's website is that we use as a cite several times. (From the text, it's clearly one of John S. McCain, Jr.'s children.) The response I got (from an ensign gunnery officer on board the ship) was:

Thank you for your interest. While I have yet to find definitive evidence of authorship, what I do know is strongly suggestive that Joe McCain is the author. The piece itself reads as if it were an address given at the ship's commissioning. Officers who attended the event do not recall Sen. McCain being there. They do remember Joe McCain speaking, hence my suspicion that he was the author.

Searching around the web, I have found this unofficial site which gives the same text ("There is something about the naval service that the civilian simply doesn't understand ...") and lists "Joseph McCain, July 1994" as the author, which is the date of the commissioning. I'm not convinced that John McCain wasn't present at the commissioning – this ship's site and this press release from a few days before both say he would be/was attending – but I am convinced enough that Joe McCain is the likely author to switch the cite to say that. Wasted Time R (talk) 15:37, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

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