Talk:John W. Ross (North Dakota architect)

development, request revert

In this edit an editor removes sourced statements with an edit summary alluding to some other source possibly contradicting. The statements here are sourced. Please provide your other source here. I was aware of the claim somewhere else, I guess at Hancock Brothers, that some other architects were first licensed ones in North Dakota. Not sure if that is a contradiction; the statement here is that a person was the first licensed architect in Grand Forks, while the Hancock Brothers article suggests they are in Fargo. No contradiction AFAIK. I'll watch here for further discussion, but I expect to return the sourced claim to the article.

Actually, SarekOfVulcan, it seems wrong that you outright deleted it. Would you please revert your edit? It would be appropriate to raise an issue of a possible contradiction at this Talk page, but deleting the information seems unnecessarily confrontational in context of your role vis-a-vis me recently, in blocking me and opening an ongoing topic ban discussion on me. --doncram 13:55, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

It wasn't an attack on you -- it was that I had to either remove the statement from here or from Hancock Brothers. Here, it was an offhand "first licensed architect in the area" comment in a document covering the Larimore City Hall -- at Hancock Brothers, it was based on this newspaper feature stating "George and Walter Hancock helped pass a 1917 law requiring licensure of architects in North Dakota. George Hancock became the first licensed architect in the state; his brother was the second." Given that the Hancock statement was so much more specific than the Ross one, I felt it was more-likely to be accurate, and therefore removed it. If you can find better sourcing for Ross being licensed in North Dakota before the Hancocks, we can switch it around. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 14:59, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

I have no idea why I didn't see your point the first time around. Yes, it is indeed possible that Ross was the first licensed architect in Grand Forks. Failing better references as to the dates, though, I see no reason to revert the edit, especially considering how awkwardly it fit in. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 16:35, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Iowa vs. North Dakota

It's conceivable that there could be 2 different architects, but I think there is just one, who was an architect in Grand Forks North Dakota and also an architect in Davenport Iowa. Indeed, it would be better to have an integrated discussion in the article, about when he moved between the places. In the interim, I am inclined to return the sourced statements to the article which describe John W. Ross as being an architect in each of these places. If someone could figure out more and write a better, integrated article, that would be great. But, if only a choppy, non-integrated treatment is possible right now, so be it. Meaning, let it be that way. --doncram 17:10, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

I strongly disagree. If we can't state with certainty that the John Rosses who designed buildings in IL, ND, and IA are the same architect, we shouldn't be saying that they are. If he wasn't notable enough for independent reliable sources, we don't need an article on him. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 17:20, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

I did not say they were the same in this version, being deliberately careful not to say what i did not know. Therefore, leaving some ambiguity in the article, with two separate statements about a John W. Ross. Which caused you to jump in and delete one of those sourced statements. So, I tried a more specific-but-conceivably false assertion, that he is just one person. The first version was/is what i prefer. You are currently pursuing a big AN proposal to ban ambiguity in articles; such a ban would tend to drive writing to inaccurate, precise statements instead. I think it is better to recognize the ambiguity. The status is ambiguous. Let it be. --doncram 19:53, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

There is little doubt that the article has conflated two different people. For example, a quick look at the 1910 United States Census shows an architect named John W. Ross who was born in Massachusetts in 1932/3 1832/3 and lives in Davenport, Iowa (with his wife, and family, including his son, Albert R. Ross who is also listed as an architect). Which confirms this source for Albert Randolph Ross. At the same time, the 1910 United States Census shows an architect named John W. Ross who was born in Germany in 1848, immigrated in 1952 and lives in Grand Forks, North Dakota (with his wife, Caroline and son, William H. Ross who is listed as a draftsman). Which confirms this source. Two different articles are required so that any questions of reliable sourcing and notability for each individual can be addressed separately. — CactusWriter ^(talk) 18:20, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

1832/3, I assume? :-) --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 18:26, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

Whoops! You assume correctly. — CactusWriter ^(talk) 18:31, 3 May 2011 (UTC)