Talk:John Warwick Montgomery

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Added some new material about his family http://wikipedia.qwika.com Efdouglass (talk) 07:30, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Removed references to unsupported NPOV article ink, non-Wiki link (qwika.com is not Wiki!).

It would be nice to have more information about the Simon Greenleaf School of Law and Theology. 71.223.17.228 03:45, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

A: For History of the School please refer to https://tls.edu/history/ 128.11.95.26 12:45, 11 November 1017

This article reads like cheerleading, and appears to equate Christianity with Fundamentalism and the political Far Right. hbquikcomjamesl (talk) 01:16, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

I have heard Dr. Montgomery say that he hosted at least 2 radio and television programs during the 1980's but I have not been able to find much detail on this. What are the names of the programs? Are any of the old programs still available? It would be a nice to add a complete summary of Dr. Montgomery's media appearances. The only ones I currently know of are his regular guest appearances on the Lutheran radio show Issues Etc, see http://www.issuesetc.org. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.160.94.199 (talk) 03:44, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

The article looks straight forward and objective to me. The man has remarkable achievements which could induce awe without needing any cheer-leaders. I don't believe that Montgomery would like being called a fundamentalist at all, though he apparently does believe the basic doctrines of Christianity. I suppose I could correct your fundamentalist canard by adding that he was famous for drinking beer, but I don't know where I would get a reliable secondary source for it. (EnochBethany (talk) 04:57, 15 April 2014 (UTC))

Reflist close added. SBaker43 (talk) 03:05, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

--References--

Melodyland School Of Theology

I had John Warwick Montgomery as a professor of Koine Greek at Melodyland School of Theology, in Anaheim, Ca. in 1979. He and Walter Martin (Apologetics) were both professors at the school at the time and were in the forefront of the battle to keep the schools positive stand on Biblical Inneracy. As Circulation Director of the school's library, I waa able to peruse Dr. Montgomery's expansive private book collection on the occult, cults, and spirtual pnenomenon.
Dr. Montgomery was generally a very strict professor, but had his moments, such as when he made several students in the class recite the Greek alphabet while the prof was tickling them, to demonstrate what kind of concentration he expected from his students.
Dr. Montgomery and Dr. Martin left Melodyland to found the Simon Greenleaf School of Law and Apologetics. Dr. Martin continued to teach an Apologetics class at Melodyland for a few years, as well as a very popular Kingdom of the Cults Sunday School class at Melodyland Christian Center. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.29.232.128 (talk) 16:08, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

NPOV, BLP, RS issues - copied from User talk

-- John Warwick Montgomery --

Point one- This is an effort to remove unproven allegations from a third party which were printed in the L.A. Times article in spite of the fact that both parties refused to comment (confirm) to the L.A. Times (see the article). The fact is that the controversy over the School and its dean was amicably settled through Christian mediation service, and the settlement requires that neither side further discuss the issues cited in public (see the article). It is patently unjust to refer to the unproven allegations when neither side is able to discuss it under legal agreement. Furthermore, the L.A. Times (tabloid style) article is only one of several articles on the topic. Unfortunately these articles require subscription to view, something the average Wiki viewer cannot do. It is unjust to only select the most erroneous article which is easy to view, violating Wiki NPOV. (see Randy Frame, Problems Derail Law School Founder, Christianity Today, March 17, 1989, 48. Nicole Brodeur, Beleagured founder agrees to leave Christian law school, The Orange County Register, Jan 12,1989, B4.)

Point two- There were subsequent inquiries into the issues regarding the controversy by an independant group- WELS (an even more Conservative religious body than Montgomery’s own) and those inquiries resulted in a published article publically exonerating John Warwick Montgomery. ( News, Allegations Not Proved, WELS Forward in Christ,Volume 76, Number 19 Issue: November 1989. Weblink: http://wels.prometdev.com/news-events/forward-in-christ/november-1989/allegations-not-proved (subscription required)Ignoring this also violate Wiki NPOV.

Point three- one of the parties in the controversy is deceased, and cannot be contacted, the remaining family members request not to participate in the Wiki article by choice, doing so against their will violates Wiki BLP policy. Furthermore, marital controversies were examined and settled in the courts and not in Newspapers. John Warwick Montgomery published a response 3 years later (Simon Greenleaf: What Can Be Learned When A Christian Institution Falls from Greatness, The Christian News, Oct 5, 1992, 10-12.) John Warwick Montgomery was exonerated by an impartial (if not more Conservative) inquiry (as stated above), so the current Law School, Trinity School of Law, (renamed) still publically cites John Warwick Montgomery as its founder (http://lawschool.tiu.edu/who-we-are/about/ ). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.214.242.26 (talk) 21:20, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

— Preceding text originally posted on User talk:SBaker43#John Warwick Montgomery (diff) by 72.214.242.26 (talk⋅contribs) 21:20, 22 October 2015 (UTC) (UTC)

• Revert oldid=686832979 was done to restore what appeared to be selectively deleted information about Montgomery's personal life. The revert was contested by the IP editor as shown above.
• The deletion of his first wife, Joyce Ann, from his Infobox and from the text is not justified by any of the above three points. She appears to have been his wife for 34 years and to have had three children with him. The Infobox should reflect that he was married to two different women. The Infobox should indicate the years they were married and the reason for the termination of the marriage. If the children of the second wife are mentioned, then the children of the first wife should be also. There is no need to mention their names unless they are notable in their own right.
• Montgomery's departure from the school can be discussed by citing WP:RS to show differing published views of his departure. Simply deleting a published characterization doesn't seem to be a neutral response. Your cited sources of Christianity Today and The Orange County Register may be used to provide a neutral view of the reason and method of departure.

SBaker43 (talk) 02:57, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for your response. You are requiring infobox material that is not a Wiki requirement. What is required is relevance. Only immediate family and heirs are currently listed. The only reason the current spouse is listed is notability. (otherwise that too is irrelevant IMO) The deceased wife is not a person of note. The living spouse is a notable musician and musical academic. (I disagree that a deceased person is relevant to name, otherwise you would have insisted naming the deceased sibling.) Furthermore, I don’t see where other Academics in Wiki must list all their former spouses and children notable or not. This is not a NPOV issue but an issue of relevance, and of Wiki BLP policy- Only immediate family and heirs are currently listed.

The other articles I mentioned do not have equal accessibility to Wiki users since they require subscription. The unproven allegations article has a clickable free link which creates an unequal advantage which is hardly NPOV. A published characterization which is one sided is not NPOV. There is referenced already in the Wiki article a NPOV LA Times article by Carla Rivera, of the same date. That is the NPOV reference to the school controversy. That reference can be moved to reference the departure from the school. However the controversy was amicably resolved by mediation later and thus it is rather non-NPOV to include it indiscriminately in what seems an attempt by certain Wiki users to mischaracterize one unjustly. The Carla Rivera article is sufficient to reference, and readers can come to informed conclusions on their own beyond Wiki. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.214.242.26 (talk) 23:18, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

==========================================================================

I agree one L.A. Times article link is misleading. There are several articles covering disparate aspects of the story from 1989. There were also allegations by the husband citing “malicious desertion” on the part of the wife (Christianity Today, Vol 33, March 17, 1989) . The story was not evenly covered by the L.A. Times, and the Carla Rivera story was printed to correct the misleading information in the Lynn Smith article the same day.

The allegations against the husband were enough that had there been proof, the husband, a practicing lawyer, would have been disciplined by the California State Bar, and as he is also an ordained minister in the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, disciplined by that organization as well. No proofs were brought forward to support those allegations, but proofs were brought forward for the husband’s allegations against the wife, and the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod Southern California District President at the time made a thorough inquiry of matter, and marital counseling with the husband and wife. (Christianity Today, Vol 33, March 17, 1989) The husband remains classified as an ordained minister in the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. ( http://locator.lcms.org/nworkers_frm/w_detail.asp?W5371 )

There was no discipline by the California State Bar, and the divorce was allowed to stand as “malicious desertion” on the part of the wife. Another independent inquiry by a more conservative religious body, Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod, concluded the same result, and printed an article exonerating the husband (Allegations not Proved, WELS Forward in Christ, Volume 76, Number 19 Issue: November 1989).

The current Law School, Trinity School of Law, (renamed) still publically cites John Warwick Montgomery as its founder (http://lawschool.tiu.edu/who-we-are/about/ ).

See also information on biblical divorce under the religious bodies mentioned:

http://www.lcms.org/Document.fdoc?src=lcm&id=273

http://www.wlsessays.net/files/WELSMarriage.pdf

Edit by 128.11.95.26

Removed references to unsupported NPOV newspaper opinion. Warning California Law Prohibits courts and parties from citing or relying on opinions not certified for publication or submission. Trinity Law School proudly names John Warwick Montgomery as Founding Dean https://tls.edu/history/ . Non public figures have requested anonymity in accordance with Wiki Biography of Living Persons policy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons 128.11.95.26 12:45, 11 November 1017

An argument can be made that the family details are BLP violations, but the LA Times is a WP:RS, and Cal. law does not prohibit citation of the LA Times. Removing reference to this amounts to whitewashing. Agricolae (talk) 00:26, 12 November 2017 (UTC)