Talk:Jonatan Giráldez

Washington Spirit records

Since one editor did not read my edit summaries and has resorted to personal attacks, I'm starting a section here to document the issues. Giraldez assumed head-coaching duties on July 7, 2024, *after* the match against Bay FC. This was confirmed by NWSL boxscore listing Adrian Gonzalez as the manager of record for the July 6 Bay FC match, as well as a separate source this editor had previously included. Seany91 (talk) 22:17, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Since you did not read the actual text you removed, I'm responding to this section here to document the issues before you unnecessarily edit war instead of discussing.

You first: removed stats for a match that was incorrectly included. This is a good edit.
However, you also edited the note attached to the table to remove the mentions of the Spirit's 2024 stats prior to Giráldez taking over. This has not been explained.

You second: changed the sentence Giráldez chose Adrián González to be his assistant and to manage the team while he completed the European season, before joining the Spirit in June and managing his first match on 6 July 2024. to say Giráldez chose Adrián González to be his assistant and interim head coach while he completed the European season., as well as removing the sentence fragment Taking a 3–0 win in his first game, an away match against Bay FC,. These are good edits.
However, you also removed the following content: In a press conference a week before this, he asked for short-term patience as he adapted to the league, while saying that his goal was to make the Spirit "the best team in America." [...] the NWSL season then had a mid-season break for 2024 Olympic football. The New York Times wrote that the timing of the mandated rest week followed by the new NWSL x Liga MX Femenil Summer Cup would effectively serve as a pre-season for Giráldez at the Spirit.. This has not been explained.

I then made four consecutive edits that reinstated much of this material, while also updating to have the correct date Giráldez took over, including rephrasings for previous content to make sure this was indicated. As various sources (including Washington Spirit themselves, a source I had also previously included) said Giráldez was in charge for the match on 6 July, I decided it would be helpful to include an explanatory note pointing to the link you had previously supplied, to clarify for any reader who may have confusion and make sure other editors don't change it back to what it had been before your edits.

In my first edit reason, I had explained that there was absolutely no reason in the slightest to remove content with previous stats and press conference quotes. I also wrote on your talk page that I have soft-reverted your edits, reinstating all of the perfectly valid information that you had no reason or explanation to remove, while taking your updates. I note these things because I believe you had read these comments before you reverted all my edits without further explanation, and if you had indeed read those comments, you cannot have thought I had merely undone your changes.

I am happy to discuss the inclusion of the content you removed that had nothing to do with the date, but it would need actual discussion to remove, not just lumping it in with a different fact correction. Kingsif (talk) 22:39, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Happy to respond in detail.

However, you also edited the note attached to the table to remove the mentions of the Spirit's 2024 stats prior to Giráldez taking over. This has not been explained.

• Giraldez was not coaching the Spirit prior to July 7, 2024. Any win-loss records achieved by the Spirit prior to July 7, 2024, belong to Adrian Gonzalez as interim head coach. Those same records therefore do not belong on Giraldez's managerial record and is out of scope for his WP article. This is a simple, objective fact of sport statistics, so I'm frankly at a loss as to why Kingsif is arguing about it nor why this fact requires additional explanation.

However, you also removed the following content: In a press conference a week before this, he asked for short-term patience as he adapted to the league, while saying that his goal was to make the Spirit "the best team in America." [...] the NWSL season then had a mid-season break for 2024 Olympic football. The New York Times wrote that the timing of the mandated rest week followed by the new NWSL x Liga MX Femenil Summer Cup would effectively serve as a pre-season for Giráldez at the Spirit.. This has not been explained.

• This is MOS:PUFFERY at best, WP:SOAP at worst. That is my subjective assessment, and other editors are fine to disagree and make further edits to improve the article. However, editors are not allowed to simply resort to edit warring, as Kingsif has done (multiple times on this page already). This also covers subsequent objections Kingsif is bringing.

it would need actual discussion to remove

• There is no WP requirements that discussions must take place before any removal. In fact, WP:BOLD is a key cornerstone of WP and I have actually followed WP:BRD, as opposed to Kingsif who have simply resorted to WP:EW. In fact, they've already violated 3RR.

Seany91 (talk) 23:07, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. You are free to not refer to me in the third person. I truly do welcome inclusion discussion.

First, the pre-7 July win-loss records you refer to were not attributed to Giráldez, they were mentioned in an explanatory note, so there's no issue with factual accuracy. The question then is whether the note is needed. I added it because I thought the clarity would be useful. Say the Spirit win their next match, it will presumably be 3rd in the table, 1 win. Halfway through a season, there's no way that's possible. I acknowledge you left the note and text about Giráldez joining in July, so the question is how much detail is best for clarifying that "these results may look weird, here's way". Since you did leave up some explanation, I am sure you had thoughts on why you thought the details you left were the appropriate level, and I'd be happy to hear them.

Second - remember, from the start, I have only been asking you to explain. You edit-warred for your version before making this reply, so do not throw those very accusations at me. I do disagree with it being puffery, but if you had simply explained that was why you removed it instead of focusing exclusively on the date when that was a non-issue, we could have got here an awful lot sooner. I think it is fair coverage of his start as manager of a new club, with in-line attribution even.

Third, I meant that at the point of my writing that comment, discussion would be needed, given the stage of BRD I felt we were at. Once again, I actually responded to discussion, and you continued to revert before making this reply. And again, you were the first to break 3RR. Kingsif (talk) 23:31, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

• Separately, Seany has added a bunch of tags about prose without starting a discussion on the prose quality. I removed them and told Seany that discussion threads were needed. Seany has re-added the tags with an edit reason saying discussion is ongoing. It is not, this discussion is about specific content, not about unsubstantiated claims of WP:PEACOCK. In that edit, Seany also reverts all my edits again; as the reason only discusses the tags, that is a deliberately misleading edit summary. It is becoming hard to assume good faith. Kingsif (talk) 23:07, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

  I have explained extensively above. You've actually already violated 3RR and are exhibiting WP:OWN. Also please note that I explained my edits while you have continuously resorted to personal attack. Seany91 (talk) 23:10, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

  I'd like to note for the record here that Kingsif just reverted again, and we're so beyond 3RR at this point. I have no interest in continuing/participating in their edit warring, so I'm out. I've laid out comprehensively everything above, and other editors can judge for themselves. Seany91 (talk) 23:14, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

  I'd like to note for the record that I self-reverted that before you made this comment. Prior to this, you had crossed 3RR first with this edit. I then only reverted after having participated in discussion here, as a means of STATUSQUO [1], and you then reverted again with a misleading edit summary before responding at the discussion.

  I challenge your accusations of OWN - I may be the primary editor by a long shot, but I am legitimately challenging unexplained removals that you decided to edit war over. As I incorporated not only your factual correction, but also your source, I think it's clear I am happy for you to have made that edit, but the misleading summary when removing sourced information is not acceptable no matter what the article. Kingsif (talk) 23:21, 7 July 2024 (UTC)