Talk:Jonathan Kozol/Archive 1
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| Archive 1 |
still working
I'm still working on this. More links need to be added, article streamlined. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Elizabeth199 (talk • contribs) 22:45, 4 June 2005 (UTC).
Biased a little?
I'm not disparaging the accomplishments of Mr. Kozol, but I don't need a wikipedia article to tell me his works are "vivid". This "entry" is just a litany of praised heaped upon praise for a controversial public figure.
- Hardly that, but why don't you revise the article to make it more factual and balanced? Set up a "Criticism" section and quote some negative reviews, perhaps? I find the bulk of the article to be a good recitation of facts. The quotes about the books are probably cribbed from back covers and dust jacket flaps, which of course will be exclusively praise.
- As a longtime Kozol enthusiast, I must say that I've never heard a negative word spoken about him or his books. I think he's a national treasure. Alan Nicoll 17:03, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
I have removed the following from the Criticism section: "Described by his critics as "out of touch" with reality." Unattributed and seems pointless and slanderous, as well as wildly incorrect about the man himself. Alan Nicoll 19:33, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
Some Quotes from Kozol
They can pay $20,000 and send their kids to prep school. But they should not have that right within the public school system. http://www.whitman.edu/education/EdWebCourses/Web360/downloads/Kozol_Interview.pdf
- To be fair, that is one sentence out of a two paragraph response to a particular question. The entire answer (below) comes across as somewhat less authoritarian. —Ben FrantzDale 16:23, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
- True enough. I just saw that someone was looking for criticisms, so I thought that I would supply some quotes that show his "Socialist" side. I remember in one interview he was asked point-blank whether parents should have the right to send their children to private schools, and he said "No". But I can no longer find it. Ian Lewis 14:22, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Kozol describes himself as "one of those fortunate Americans who grew up in a wealthy suburb, Newton, Mass. My parents were well educated and were able to give me everything in the world." When Kozol was 18, his father escorted him to his alma mater, Harvard, and introduced him to the dean of admissions, a former classmate. One of Kozol's English literature professors at Harvard, Archibald MacLeish, befriended him and recommended this promising English major for a Rhodes scholarship. After receiving his diploma in 1958, Kozol crossed the Atlantic to study at Oxford University, much to the delight of his father, whom, the author muses, "probably wanted me to be the next junior senator from Massachusetts." http://www.publishersweekly.com/article/CA168285.html?pubdate=5%2F15%2F2000&display=archive
"There is a sense, within the Cuban schools, that one is working for a purpose and that that purpose is a great deal more profound and more important than the selfish pleasure of an individual reward" http://www.city-journal.org/html/10_1_americas_most.html http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolumnists/65103.htm
- The full quote from above from [1] is as follows —Ben FrantzDale 16:23, 9 May 2006 (UTC):
- Q: Don't you think that financially able parents will always want to pay extra for the education of their children?
- A: Oh, sure. And if rich parents are afraid to let their children compete on an equal playing field, that's their right. But they ought to know what they're doing. They ought to recognize that they are protecting their children against democracy. And if they want to do that, they have a perfect right. They can pay $20,000 and send their kids to prep school. But they should not have that right within the public school system.
- Even very conservative businessmen out in rich suburbs have in weak moments looked at me and said, "Well, you're right, we would never play Little League baseball this way." They wouldn't dream of sending their kids out with baseball mitts to play ball against a team that had to field the ball with bare hands. They'd regard that as being without honor. I say to them, "It's interesting. You wouldn't play baseball that way but you run the school system that way."
More Criticisms of Kozol
Again, replying to those who were interested in seeing criticisms of Kozol, their was a very good article on him in EducationNext that was fairly critical. Here is the link: Savage Exaggerations
Copyright problem
I figured out why the article sounds so much like the subject's official bio: it's lifted from precisely that. [2]. I'm going to blank the sections that are direct copies of the bio, which is unfortunately about half the article. DCB4W 01:39, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
- I backtracked the copyvio problem to the 4 June 2005 revisions by an anonymous poster. DCB4W 02:00, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Criticism
While I understand there's a need for criticism to be noted in this article, the content under that heading in this article is sorely lacking. The only thing I saw was this quote:
"Kozol was the keynote speaker at the Pennsylvania State University College of Liberal Arts graduation ceremony in 2003 and was booed by the crowd (some people even walked out) after he told graduates they should be ashamed of graduating college while many people were unable to get an education."
I have attempted to verify this quote, through a search of every campus database at my disposal here at Ball State, including a complete Lexis Nexis Newspaper search covering the last five years, and aside from a note buried on Penn State's website mentioning Kozol was to be their keynote speaker, I have yet to find anything verifying the walk-out or his comment. And without a direct quote, it's hard to rationalize keeping the "he told graduates they should be ashamed of graduating college" statement. Kroessman 08:35, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
re: citation needed tag
I am not even sure if this section needed a citation so much, but here:
This page is a 2002 article from the Nation in which Kozol says:
"The contrasts between what is spent today to educate a child in the poorest NewYork City neighborhoods, where teacher salaries are often even lower.than the city averages, and spending levels in the wealthiest suburban areas are daunting challenges to any hope New Yorkers might retain that even semblances of fairness still prevail. Teachers in the schools of District 7 in Mott Haven, for example, where some 99.8 percent of children are black or Latino, now receive a median salary that is approximately half the median salary of teachers in the affluent communities of Great Neck and Manhasset. (The actual numbers, which are annually compiled by the state, are $42,000 for a teacher in Mott Haven, versus $82,000 for the teachers in these two Long Island suburbs.) Including all the other costs of operation of a public school, a third-grade class of twenty-five children in the schools of Great Neck now receives at least $200,000 more per year than does a class the sarne size in Mott Haven, while children in a comparable classroom in Manhasset now receive a quarter-million dollars more."
Kozol uses this tactic often. I don't have the books in front of me, but it is a significant logical and rhetorical strategy in Savage Inequalities, as well as Death at an Early Age. Maybe someone who has the books at hand could pull some quotes out.
As a completely unrelated side note, I had a discussion a few years ago with someone who had spent a great deal of their professional lives in the New York City School system as an administrator, and was very much not a fan of Kozol. His problem was that he saw Kozol as being extremely biased and focused on, for example, the financial concerns and some other "quick fix" solutions, without giving a great deal of space or thought to the strategies that had been employed by many dedicated and serious educational professionals over the years in the areas that Kozol addressed. My personal take on Kozol is that he does not see himself as an educator so much as an advocate for children disempowered by a system he sees as fundamentally inequitable.
Criticisms
I have removed the criticism that Kozol's critics describe him as "out of touch with reality". If there is not any evidence or context for this comment, it seems inappropriate. This opinion hardly qualifies as "criticism".
Gnuosphere 11:14, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
The whole criticism section is unsourced and/or original research. I'm not against having such a section, but right now, the article just states flat out what is "wrong" with Mr. Kozol, instead of citing people who have criticized him, as it should. Makerowner 01:46, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
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