Talk:Josh Groban/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Tenor Vs. Baritone

Redacted, as Danypo would prefer to be offline.Danypo 16:01, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree... he's no tenor. I don't think he can fit in any operatic roles, so he's better off doing popera. <<The preceeding anonymous comment was left by Boipussi.

Redacted, as Danypo would prefer to be offline.Danypo 17:12, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

He has rather unique voice range from F2 to A4 so he can also can sing bass-baritone roles. Another person with such range is Joshua Kadison. The latter often uses falsetto so he exceeds beyond C5 slightly.

Josh's own official webpage lists him as a tenor! I think we should go with what he bills himself, people.

Where, on his official site, is his vocal range listed? I can't find it anywhere. I'd say he's a baritone primarily. Most of his songs I can sing, and I'm a baritone, who's occasionally journeyed into second tenor territory. Unless someone can come up with specific references to his tenor-osity, he should stay listed as a baritone in the article, IMHO. --Ebyabe 14:23, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Hello. I tread on broken glass with this edit, I know. However, Danypo, I would hope that someone, such as yourself, who listens to artists such as Il Divo would know that there IS such thing as pop opera. Your proclamation that there is no such thing bothers me when I find out that you know full well who Il Divo is and yet persist with your comment of: "I mean, there is no such thing as pop opera". There indeed is and, as I have mentioned, Il Divo is one example of the pop opera or, as it is popularly known, popera, sound. However this particular section in which I am leaving my edit is for the tenor v. baritone debate and therefore I think that your bringing up the debate on whether or not pop opera exists was unnecessary. Hypocritical though that may be as I have continued the debate, this was my only way of expressing my feelings to you and I hope that this discussion would either end here or continue somewhere far from this spot in order to save others from the bickering that may well be a result of my edit. Thank you.

Hello. In taped interviews in 2007, Josh himself describes his current range as "high baritone". He further states that it is his understanding that as his voice matures, he may end up as a tenor. His understanding is that Pavrotti (of which he does not jest to compare himself)was a baritone at his age(26) and that when his voice fully matures at around 35, he is hoping to achieve tenor status. Only then will he attempt arias and operatic roles. He also describes himself as a "pop singer with classical influences" and detests the word 'popera'. He has yet to do a single operatic song, and frankly doesn't understand why people insist on labeling him an opera singer of any kind. He feels his voice is most suited for Broadway-type musicals but enjoys pop too much to give it up for now. The interviews I reference can be found under 'media' at www.thatjoshgrobanguy.com If this is not helpful to your article, please feel free to remove it. (joleighva 01:40, 2 September 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.230.211.24 (talk)

Hello all. Josh Groban's website says he is a tenor and he frequently sings high As and B flats which puts him solidly in the tenor range. He also has a more tenor vocal timbre and vocal weight as opposed to a baritone quality. If he were doing opera, he probably would sing tenor buffo roles right now and eventually grow into the light lyric tenor repetoire. I suggest going with tenor as his own website says.Broadweighbabe (talk) 17:52, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Where on his site does it say he's a tenor? I can't find anything talking about his range there at all. He sounds like a baritone to me, but that's just an opinion. We need sources, one way or the other, please. --Ebyabe (talk) 17:58, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

In this interview, he says he was a baritone, but implies that his voice changed later to a tenor. Can that happen? I've not heard of a voice going up like that, only down. Hmm. --Ebyabe (talk) 18:03, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes that happens frequently actually. See voice type article. Many singers start out in one category and then their voice develops either through physical maturity or training into another. Many young men actually start out as lyric baritones and end up as tenors as they hit their late 20s. Many Helden-tenors actually start out as baritones. Also his website does say if you read the bi=line given in the search engine which would come from the website "Official site of tenor Josh Groban".Divinediscourse (talk) 18:32, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

(comment left by Nrswanson at User talk:EarthFurst): Josh is a tenor. If you do a search for him in yahoo or google and read the bi-line for his official website in the search results it says Official website of tenor Josh Groban. Thos bi-lines are generated by the actual website. I would assume then that if the official webste says tenor he is a tenor.Nrswanson (talk) 19:36, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

(reply to Divinediscourse and Nrswanson): I don't have an opinion on what Groban's voice type is (I only learned of his existence about two weeks ago). I can't find any use of the word "tenor" or "baritone" on Josh's website nor his myspace (but both use the word "vocalist" to describe him). thatjoshgrobanguy.com refers to Groban as a baritone.

As for the Yahoo description, it seems to be derived from Yahoo! Directory and not from Groban's website.

The google.ca description I get for joshgroban.com is "Official site for this young vocalist who is best remembered for his appearance on the 2001 season finale of Ally McBeal, and at the Closing Ceremonies of ...". When I try google.com I get forwarded to google.ca, so I used workfriendly.net to see google.com search results and also get that Google description ("Official ... young vocalist ... Ceremonies of ..."). --EarthFurst (talk) 21:52, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Although I have once seen "tenor" listed on Josh Groban's web site, I have reason to believe that labeling his voice type as tenor is incorrect. I am currently a vocal performance student in a Bachelor of Music program in college and getting rigorous classical voice training. I can personally testify from constantly listening to many trained singers from all different levels what a tenor, baritone, bass, alto, mezzo, or soprano sounds like. First of all, I am identified as a mezzo-soprano (which is sort of the female equivalent to a baritone). I can sing all of Josh Groban's songs if I sing them one octave higher than he does, which is to be expected since a mezzo-soprano's range is approximately the same as a baritone, just one octave above. Second, although Groban has an impressive range and is capable of hitting A4 and B4, this is not uncommon for a well-trained baritone. He does sometimes struggle in the upper extremes of his range and often reverts to falsetto, which is unnecessary for a true trained tenor at this high range. Also, I am a mezzo-soprano (a medium-voiced female singer) and, on a good day, I can hit a B5 and sometimes even a C6 (high C), but this does not make me a soprano. Third, tessitura is the most important factor in correctly determining a singer's voice classification, although the singer may be able to hit "high" notes, it is the singer's most COMFORTABLE singing range that classifies his or her voice type, as well as that range of the voice which possesses the most "color". The singer's timbre is evidence of the singer's true vocal classification as well. Groban's comfortable tessitura and the timbre of his voice both fit the classification of a lyric baritone. It is in the low-middle part of his range where he possesses the richest timbre, best tone quality, and seems to sound (and look) the most comfortable when singing. I hear no evidence for tenor classification at all in his voice. He is also pretty solid singing low notes where a true tenor would barely be capable of making much sound. In addition, I have also seen video clips of interviews or disscussions where he himself has called himself a high baritone. While it is true, that low or mid voices may become higher as they mature, I don't hear this is in Groban's voice. I have listened to his recordings and televised performances since the beginning of his career until now and his voice sounds lower and darker than his early beginnings, which seems to cement his voice in baritone classification. If he were shifting towards tenor classification, it would no doubt sound higher, lighter, and brighter as his voice matured. Lastly, he is not a classical or opera singer. Most of the songs that he sings live and/or records is not from the classical music period. With the exception of his Christmas album, which contains some traditional songs, he has not sung or recorded any music in the classical vocal repertoire. He recorded "Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring" by J.S. Bach on his first album, but J.S. Bach is a composer of the Baroque period, not classical. Also, he is not an opera singer, since he has never performed in an opera, nor has he recorded or publicly performed an aria from an operatic work. The music that he sings are mostly contemporary songs that he has either written, had written for him, Broadway/musical theater hits, a few cinematic themes, or cover songs from other popular artists. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.123.57.76 (talk) 04:51, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Well you raise some interesting points. However, I take issue with several of them and I am a professional opera singer and a lyric baritone. First, you make no allowance for human growth and development. The voice for men is still in a highly flexible phase during their twenties. Women's voices tend to mature and settle earlier, usually in the mid 20s (of course every voice is different and some will earlier or later). Men on the other hand, often don't find their voices completely settled until their late 20s to early thirties. It is for this reason that several music conservatories and young artist programs have higher age caps for male singers than for female ones. Also, most male voices drop lower and then move up. I myself was a bass as an undergraduate student but my voice raised considerably in my late 20s. Second, their are tenors with a more baritone quality to the vocal timbre which are refered to as Heldentenors. It does not necessarily follow that the voice must take on a lighter or brighter timbre. There are just as many types of tenors as other voice types with varying degrees of vocal weight and vocal timbre. Read the tenor article for goodness sakes. Third, the mezzo-soprano voice is not equivalent to the baritone. Mezzos tend to have larger ranges for one and the fach for a mezzo has more sub divisions. They are similar in being the most common voice types of their sex and being the middle voice types but I wouldn't take the similarity too far. The mechanics of singing for men and women is different as well as men have to "cover" in the upper part of the voice and women do not. Also the vocal transition points or passagio lies in different places. In my personal professional opinion Josh's voice hasn't stopped growing and it is currently unclear as to where his voice will ultimately settle. I will say though that he has an uncommonly high upper extension for a baritone and it is my suspicion that he may be a tenor. To my ears his voice doesn't have a rich enough lower register to be a true baritone. Right now it is just uncertain and only time will tell. his website does market him as a tenor so I would say that the article should reflect that.Nrswanson (talk) 20:24, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

I am a member of his website and it is incorrect to say that it lists that he is a Tenor. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Swabbi (talk • contribs) 11:42, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

This site says that he's an operatic tenor: http://www.pbs.org/wnet/gperf/shows/joshgroban/joshgroban.html , but no where on his site (www.joshgroban.com) nor his fanclub (which I'm a member of) is he listed as a tenor. Narmowen (talk) 10:44, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

It does not say that that's what he is. Its exact words about his voice are: "the spectacular voice that has the power of an operatic tenor but the romantic tenderness of a pop balladeer." emphasis added -SpellcheckW7 (talk) 22:02, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree. That PBS does not support the contention that his range is tenor. I have a revolutionary suggestion. Why don't you all simply leave the "voice" field in the infobox blank. The field name won't appear if it's blank. Infoboxes should only have unambiguous information. There's absolutely no reason why every field has to be filled in, especially if they oversimplfy or mislead. You all might find this article helpful too [1] several comments from his voice teacher of many years, David Romano. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 22:54, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

check out this link http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/Josh-Groban-Biography/D4CC61D88DA3482248256BA0002BAAE0 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Swabbi (talk • contribs) 18:18, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I would tend to agree more with PBS on the basis of it's reputation. Also I have heard Josh himself say on television that he is a tenor.Nrswanson (talk) 18:22, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

A thought has occured to me. It appears that there are sources supporting both views and therefore both views should be presented. Otherwise the article fails wikipedia neutrality. I have therefore gone ahead and removed the voice description from the intro and created a section on Groban's voice that presents both views.Nrswanson (talk) 23:46, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Good compromise. I've put in a superscript hash which links to the newly-created section but it looks ugly, but I can't think of a better way of doing it. x42bn6 Talk Mess 16:27, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

I changed it from "unclear" to "baritone or tenor". I think he should be classified as a baritone though, since that is his natural range, and he needs to really push to hit the A and B above middle C. I agree with 131.123.57.76 (above Nrswanson). I was not naturally a tenor, but I have worked on my voice, and now I can sing about as high as he can. SpellcheckW7 (talk) 14:43, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Who reverted my change, and why? How is "unclear" better than "baritone or tenor", when everyone is saying that he is one of these? I'll change it back, unless someone can give me a good reason. However, true tenors cannot sing as low as he can. They cannot sing F or G above low C. Therefore, his low end makes him a baritone. So I think the real question is; is he a tenor as well? The Info box template has "Voice type(s)", suggesting that it doesn't have to be one or the other. How about baritone/tenor? -SpellcheckW7 (talk) 23:12, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

I reverted your [a couple of] change[s] because the information you added is inaccurate. There is absolutely no way that Groban sang up to a G5 which would be a fifth higher than Tenor C or C2 which would be below the typical bass register let alone baritone. Second, you have there are no sources cited for your [the] information [someone else added]. The highest note Groban has recorded on CD is B4, and although I haven't checked I don't believe he sings below a C3 or D3 which is still in the tenor range. Whether he can actually sing higher or lower is unclear and should not be placed in the article without a source. Third, having baritone/tenor would suggest that he is both which in my opinion as a vocal pedagogist would be entirely against vocal classification/ fach practices.Nrswanson (talk) 15:08, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

I did not add that information about his range. It was an anonymous user. I thought it was unlikely, but I didn't know what his real range was, so I added the [citation needed] note. Thanks for the explanation. At least you apparently have a higher claim to credibility than I do. I know he sings lower than C3, though. -SpellcheckW7 (talk) 18:07, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

I checked some of his music, and in "To Where You Are", he sings a G2. So what do you think? Isn't that baritone? -SpellcheckW7 (talk) 18:55, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

It all depends. It is harder to tell with contemporary singers as they use microphones. Vocal ranges were traditionally determined not by what notes a singer could hit but by what a singer could comfortably sing and be heard over an orchestra without the aid of a microphone. I would really have to hear him in person without a mic to tell. To my ears, Groban's vocal timbre approaches a tenor more than a baritone. Also some tenors, like Placido Domingo, can sing down to G2. Regardless, it doesn't matter what you or I "think", wikipedia is not interested in what is "true" but what is "verifiably true" (i.e. verifiable independent resources). As there are different resources affirming him as a tenor and as a baritone both views should be presented.Nrswanson (talk) 04:36, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I can give you verifiable resources. I have seen sheet music of his songs at: http://www.musicnotes.com/features/artists/groban_josh/, and I have found notes from G2 to B flat 5. I can verify the ranges of the songs in the notes below the sheet music, although the notation seems to conflict with Wikipedia's in the C note article. I can read music and have heard the songs, so I know what notes they're talking about. http://www.ipasource.com/baritone gives a scholarly (see http://www.ipasource.com/bio) definition of the different kinds of baritones, one of which is between the extremes of Josh's performance range. And looking at the definition of Tenors on the same site, he could almost be called a Dramatic Tenor (Heldentenor), but not quite. As for most media, music and classifying singers is not their area of expertise. -SpellcheckW7 (talk) 22:24, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

The notation is based on American scientific pitch notation which is based around the musical note C. There is also a different European system. Regardless, the highest baritone on the IPA doesn't go above A flat which according to your research is a whole step lower than Groban's voice. That whole step really puts him in an ambiguous place. A baritone shouldn't be able to sing a B flat 4 (not 5). The New York Times refered to him as a "tenor in training" (see note above) which I think is an apt description. There's also his vocal quality which to my ears sounds more like a tenor (although there are some baritonal qualities) than a baritone. I would also be careful in applying the fach system to Groban as he is not really an opera singer and the application of fach has more to do with placing opera singers within a set type of opera role. The system is also not universally applied (there are also different Italian and French practices and different casting/categorization practices in America and England as well). I would not apply opera terms to Groban as he really hasn't trained as an opera singer. Nrswanson (talk) 00:06, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

A note on scientific pitch notation. Middle C=C4 in this sytem. One note below middle C= B3 and one note above middle C=D4. So C is the note the sytem is based around. B flat 4 therefore is the B flat almost a seventh above middle C not B flat 5.Nrswanson (talk) 00:18, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

From my talk page:"when I have information that shows that he is lower than a tenor by any definition, I don't know how you can argue with that. He can clearly sing lower than that, and he doesn't have a tenor C." When I listen to him, he sounds more comfortable on notes lower than A flat, and he sings less vibrato, the higher he goes. I'd like to know what other people have to say about what I have said. And I would appreciate it if you would remove the false accusations about the false and unsourced information you said I added. -SpellcheckW7 (talk) 18:53, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

In "You Are Loved (Don't Give Up)", Josh sings a B (natural) above middle C, but having listened to it, I think he may have sung it in falsetto. And can anyone confirm Nrswanson's assertion about the scientific pitch notation? I was assuming it started with a (as in G3 followed by A4), but he is saying that it starts with C (as in B3 followed by C4). I haven't seen any sources on the notation outside of Wikipedia. -SpellcheckW7 (talk) 21:19, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I am sorry but I don't go back and change comments I make. That would also require changing your response and would make our conversation unintelligible to others. I appologize that I accused you without realising there was another editor between you and me that put in that false information (and this is the second time I am apologizing for the record). As for "convincing me", that really isn't important. What is important is that there are sources identifying both voice types that are verifiable. Therefore both views should be presented regardless of what you or I personally think. Wikipedia is not about what is true but what is "verifiably true". We can add information about range and other technical information but that still doesn't change the fact that Groban himself and the media has not been consistant in defining his own voice. Also, the ranges on the IPA are a whole step lower than B flat 5 so they don't cover Groban's upper voice either. As for the lower extension, it's not all that uncommon for tenors to be able sing that low (example Placido Domingo). It's much more typical for tenors to have a lower extension (albight not quite that low) than for baritones to have an upper extension. For opera the question is what can be heard over an orchestra without a microphone and neither of us can know that when it comes to Josh. All of this is speculation though (a.k.a original research). The facts are that Groban has been identified in media as both a tenor and a baritone. Any other take is simply personal opinion and shouldn't be in the article. I think as it reads now is neutral and fair.Nrswanson (talk) 22:41, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

He always said in interviews that he is a baritone. What are some of you listening to?Swabbi (talk) 23:09, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

That is not true. I have heard him refer to himself as a tenor recently on PBS. But be that as it may, there are other sources that classify him as a tenor. In order to be neutral both information should be presented.Nrswanson (talk) 23:11, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

click the link that I provided for you above.Swabbi (talk) 00:01, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

References

I changed the references about Josh being referred to as a tenor and as a baritone because the ones that were given had dubious evidence of his being called those. For the tenor reference, I explained toward the top of this section. The baritone reference quoted Josh as saying, "I had a pretty good baritone voice..." If his voice hadn't changed through training into some of the tenor range, there would be no debate. He was talking about his past voice. -SpellcheckW7 (talk) 18:37, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the better references. I applaude your efforts.Nrswanson (talk) 18:39, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. -SpellcheckW7 (talk) 17:30, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I added two more references (one for tenor and one for baritone), which appear to be reliable sources, especially the one from CBS (baritone). And by the way, when I did searches for "Josh Groban tenor" and "Josh Groban baritone", I was finding more sites that actually said he was a baritone than ones that said he was a tenor, for what that's worth. -SpellcheckW7 (talk) 19:58, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Rumor reference

I have not been able to verify the following information, and it doesn't sound encyclopedic.

"It should also be noted that it has been rumored that Josh Groban can in fact hit the Tenor C above Middle C. He has just never recorded or performed this note in public. "

-SpellcheckW7 (talk) 17:30, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I am a claasical soprano in training. I think we should examine Josh' Groban's speaking vpice to better understand his voice type as men "sing where they speak". On many interviews I have noted how sweet and high it sounds, more like a tenor and less like a baritone.Beauxartsqueen (talk) 00:59, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Although an interesting idea to ponder, any speculation along those lines would be original research and therefore not appropriate for a wikipedia article.Nrswanson (talk) 01:07, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, it's not original research if there are some WP:RS's out there. I don't know if there are (and I don't see why we should presume that there aren't), but if you happen to come across any, and if you see how they could be cited in the article, then please feel free to introduce them. Cosmic Latte (talk) 14:00, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

I've changed "unclear" to "Baritone or tenor" (keeping the "see below" footnote), because it is clear that he's a baritone or a tenor; it's just not clear which. Hence the "or." Cosmic Latte (talk) 07:21, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

And I've been reverted. I won't press the matter now, apart from saying that I don't see how it is unclear that he is a baritone or a tenor (and that he is not, say, an alto, a soprano, or a castrato), regardless of how his voice may settle in the future. The funky thing about Wikipedia is that it can be updated in a heartbeat when things change. Cosmic Latte (talk) 13:53, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Wording of relationship

Hello, I'm new here and basically flying blind. I am a journalism student in Minnesota. Anyways, the wording of a sentence in Influences and personal details threw me off. He is single, but dated January Jones from 2003-2006, breaking up in the summer of that year. However, they "remain friends". I switched it to He is single, but dated January Jones from 2003-2006, breaking up in the summer of that year. They remain friends. That's a little bit less implicative. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.197.207.245 (talk) 00:09, 18 April 2008 (UTC) BetacommandBot (talk) 23:12, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

You are os cool. can you tell me how you started sing? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.88.200.125 (talk) 18:19, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Plagiarism

You gotta love people who copy Wikipedia. Why don't they just link to it? http://allieiswired.com/archives/2008/02/february-27th-2008-happy-birthday-josh-groban/ http://www.sodahead.com/group/567/ SpellcheckW7 (talk) 15:34, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Ben Affleck video

There have been several recent attempts to remove information regarding this video on the page even though it is well cited. I personally think it should stay in the article as press about the video has been quite broad.Nrswanson (talk) 00:02, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I think it unfortunate that it was added. I wouldn't consider it an essential part of the article. I wouldn't have added it, but I won't remove it. I see that it is referenced and probably encyclopedic. I will respect the rights of editors with lower standards than mine. -SpellcheckW7 (talk) 22:37, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Classifying Groban's voice

It has been stated that the high note in "You Raise Me Up" is a B Flat, when I think that it is a B Natural. If someone can actually listen to the song and play the pitch on their piano, they should find that it is in fact a B Natural. If I am mistaken, please let me know. (It is possible my piano is not properly tuned) By the way, the note can be found at 3:30 in the song. Also, can the note sung at 1:44 in the song "Let Me Fall" also appears to be the note before High C. Furthermore, the note sung at 1:35 in "Maria" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2V-VV0WE7A8) is the same note. He stays on this note for five seconds. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.109.53.177 (talk) 01:54, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Alas, to put such a thing in the article would be original research; a reliable source which says this would be good. x42bn6 Talk Mess 12:49, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

It is indeed B flat. See my references: http://www.joshgrobanlive.com/faqs.php and http://www.musicnotes.com/sheetmusic/mtd.asp?ppn=MN0045310 (below the sheet music window, "voice, range: Bb3-Bb5".) (By the way, if you have a digital piano, it could be transposed down 1/2 step.) -SpellcheckW7 (talk) 19:48, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes there was something wrong with my keyboard, and I just purchased a new one. Thank you for helping me figure this out.

You're welcome. -WikiWes77 (talk) 04:42, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Early life

Unverified Claim

"He also played the penny whistle as well as the kazoo in grade school." -moved by WikiWes77 (talk) 15:22, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

We're likely to get some ... odd ... edits after the cracked.com article. See last paragraph. Kylu (talk) 00:54, 18 July 2008 (UTC)