Talk:Julien Benneteau

Pronunciation of Surname

There have recently been some ill-conceived edits changing the pronunciation to [beneto]. There is a business called Bénéteau and this could possibly be a cause of confusion. However, the spelling of the name Benneteau suggests the pronunciation [bɛnəto] (listen to the recording here), or [bɛnto] (listen to the interviewer in the first few seconds of this clip). LynwoodF (talk) 11:45, 15 October 2018 (UTC)

I have been looking for a clip in which he pronounces his own name, but have not found one. I understand that he himself says [bɛnto], which is the way the interviewer in the clip mentioned above addresses him. I notice that he does not challenge her pronunciation. LynwoodF (talk) 09:49, 17 October 2018 (UTC)

When the interview pronounced /beneto/ here, he didn't challenge it either. So we can't get the correct pronunciation from his reaction. I also failed to find his own French pronunciation of the surname, but he pronounces /bɛnɛtoʊ/ in English here. I think if he pronounces /bɛn(ə)to/ in French, then he would pronounce /bɛn(ə)toʊ/ in English. 113.77.255.168 (talk) 00:39, 18 October 2018 (UTC)

In a piece from an ATP site an English speaker is saying /bɛnəto/ quite clearly. I get the impression that he has ensured that he gets it right. However, it is difficult to be sure about this without the man himself speaking his own name during a conversation in French. Incidentally, I have not heard any French speaker say /bɛnɛtou/, although I have often heard BBC sports reporters say something like that and several people say they are hearing [ɛ] for the second vowel.

I do wonder how well people are listening to speech sounds. I had something of a battle earlier this year with someone who was determined to believe that the o in Roland was exactly the same as the o in Garros. In the clip they gave I could clearly hear the difference. For about three years I lived within walking distance of Roland Garros and got used to the way people round there said it. These days I get the impression that the o in Garros is somewhat less close than it was a few decades ago, but the argument was about the o in Roland. My boss was a Briton called Roland and the French speakers in the office always referred to him as [ʁɔlɑ̃]. LynwoodF (talk) 09:07, 18 October 2018 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I see that one of your clips is the same as the one I mentioned just now. LynwoodF (talk) 09:34, 18 October 2018 (UTC)

You're wrong. A French speaker on WordReference Forum said both pronouncers on Forvo pronounced /beneto/, not /bɛnəto/ as you said.

The fact is that most French reporters pronounce /beneto/ and only a few pronounce /bɛn(ə)to/ if you search YouTube.

Yes, Langenscheidt also transcribes Roland as /ʁɔlɑ̃/.

And, which is the same clip? 113.77.255.52 (talk) 22:50, 18 October 2018 (UTC)

Your second link takes me to the ATP page where I found a clip. However, I did not find JB saying his own name, either on that clip or any of the others.

The person on WordReference who condemned Forvo was just plain wrong. Here is my link again. Click on the pronunciation by Pat91, whom I have found pretty reliable in recent times. He clearly says [bɛnəto], with an open e in the first syllable and a mid-central vowel in the second of three. No close e anywhere.

I have been listening to clips on YouTube and I have not found a great deal of [beneto], but I have found quite a few umpires at French tournaments saying [bɛnəto]. However, the important thing is that I have found the Holy Grail, JB saying his own name. It is about 20 seconds into this clip. His speech is rather slurred, but he clearly pronounces his name [bɛnto], in just two syllables. He has a very casual style of speech and I am not surprised that he elides the second e. LynwoodF (talk) 16:58, 19 October 2018 (UTC)

I mean the pronunciation button on ATP site: [1].

Wow so good to find his own French pronunciation. But it sounds three syllables to me and the second e is definately not /ə/. Have you tried to listen at the 0.5 times slower speed? Miaowmiaowmew (talk) 00:58, 20 October 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for your contribution. Are you what I should call a proper phonetician? I am more of a historical phonologist. My aim has been to establish that Benneteau should not be pronounced in the same way as Bénéteau, Incidentally, I notice that there is also a name written Benetteau, which I assume is pronounced [bənɛto] – I have never heard it spoken. LynwoodF (talk) 07:22, 20 October 2018 (UTC)

I notice that he speaks his family name again at about 52 seconds and it is slightly clearer. There is a hint of a semi-syllabic n, but I hear no vowel at all in the middle of the name. On the three-syllable recordings I notice something which is quite common in careful or exaggerated French pronunciation. The [ə] is dragged forward in the mouth and in extreme cases, e.g. when it is used as the name of the letter e, it can be replaced by the rounded front vowel [ø]. LynwoodF (talk) 13:59, 20 October 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for your praise :), but actually I'm not an expert. I just like languages. And you can see my transcriptions came from some dictionaries.

I don't hear his pronunciation of the surname elsewhere except in the 21st second. A native French speaker on the WR Forum agreed with me, saying it's pronounced "Bénéteau". Miaowmiaowmew (talk) 03:45, 21 October 2018 (UTC)

Listen from 52 seconds into the clip. He says, "...les Benneteau, tous nos amis, nos familles, nos proches...". He clearly speaks his surname as two syllables. Incidentally, do you notice the incomplete occlusion in the initial phoneme? I don't know whether this is a feature of his regional accent – I have never been to Bourg-en-Bresse – or whether he has a minor speech defect – his speech sometimes sounds a little slurred. Maybe it is just part of his casual style.

Those people on WR Forum are not listening to speech sounds properly. You need to listen to a phrase about half a dozen times in quick succession. It is easy these days – find the beginning of the phrase and leave the cursor there and keep hitting it, so as to focus on what the person is actually saying, as opposed to what one might expect to hear.

Having heard him say his own surname, I am now 100% sure that the appropriate pronunciation type to report on WP is [bɛn(ə)to]. This would be the standard pronunciation type for the name as spelled and he himself elides the second e, whereas on many recordings it is not elided. Some French speakers are saying [beneto], but that can be put down to contamination by the more familiar name Bénéteau.

What I should ask anyone who is reluctant to agree with me is:

1) Do you speak French? I do.

2) Have you studied French phonology and orthography? I have.

3) Have you lived in France and used French daily for long periods? I have.

I first visited France 68 years ago and in the 1960s I lived in four different parts of France, becoming familiar with the regional accents. LynwoodF (talk) 12:16, 21 October 2018 (UTC)

At 52s, he says "Y avait tous... tous nos amis, nos familles, nos proches.". That you can't even hear that tells us all we need to know about your "expertise". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.250.92.159 (talk) 13:13, 21 October 2018 (UTC)

Possibly to do with the accuracy of the equipment available to me or my lack of nimbleness. At 52s I hear the end of a word which is probably "France", then "les Benneteau", which is the important thing. LynwoodF (talk) 14:46, 21 October 2018 (UTC)

No, he does not say "les Benneteau". He says "... en France. Y avait tous... tous nos amis, nos familles, nos proches.".

You apparently mistake "Y avait tous" for "les Benneteau". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.250.92.159 (talk) 11:27, 22 October 2018 (UTC)

I think I'm living in a parallel universe. I am hearing [le βɛnto] at that point. LynwoodF (talk) 14:43, 22 October 2018 (UTC)