Talk:Julio Argentino Roca

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There have some major edits by an anon recently which where then partly reverted by User:Marianocecowski. I will explain, my reversions. Ten to twenty thousand indians is the estimated range od living indiands, of both sexes and all ages, in all the Patagonia (including less populated areas south of the Rio Negro). In this site [1] there are some figures corroborating that estimate. Saying most historians consider it a genocide is the kind of statement that belongs to a "silent discussion" that already took place in this article. Depending on the scope of what we consider historians, that indefinite article wil change, but it is to be noted that most prominent members of the Argentine Academy of History (De Marco, Garcia Belsunce, Bazán, Botana, Luna) do not share that opinion. The 1,250 figure was drawn from Floria's "Historia de los Argentinos", in the site whose link I provided there's a referrence to a letter from Roca saying 1,320 had been killed. I have never seen any document corroborating the 10 thousand figure, other than vague essays/manifestos in indymedia. Secondly, the indian problem was not on how to control the land, it was on how to stop the malones, effective control appeared as the preferred solution, particulary at a time when chile was having and expansive war against peru and bolivia. Thirdly, I obviously eliminated the "terrible" adjective (one last note: apart from the 3k prisoners, 3k handed themselves voluntarily to the conquerors). Finally, I made no reversion to it, but where's the source saying separation (which indeed occurred) was a) by sexes b) to prevent ethnic descendance? That should be cited. YoungSpinoza 19:38, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

I think the edits by that anon were taken from the Spanish version of the article. I have no reference with numbers, nor with cites of known historians naming the Conquest of the Desert a genocide. Nevertheless, the Conquest has been long and widely regarded as a genocide. Recent discussions about the validity of this popular belief, and articles about the subject have appeared in the last 20 years. That's probably why you'll find more info defending Roca than attacking him.

BTW: Should we move this info to Conquest of the Desert ? Mariano(t/c) 08:43, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

It has long been known as a genocide? by whom? Revisionists like ernesto palacio, manuel galvez and, particularly, jose maria rosa had written against what they labelled "roquismo" in traditional argentine history (or historiography?) and pointed out the deaths on the desert (however, they rejected more other issues of roca's governement, like europeization), yet I haven't found that word (genocide) until more recent works by osvaldo bayer and felipe pigna. About the "popular belief"... in fact, both the belief and the debate started in the las 20 years. Prior to it, I guess there was not much "popular" interest in the issue. Well, there's info here missing in the conquest article, and it should be copypasted. Yet, I wouldn't cut it from this article, because despite the campaign being design and voted by the executive and the legislative, it is Roca who is often labelled as "genocida" (a word that should be somehow translated into this article, even if does not really have an equivalent word). YoungSpinoza 18:46, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

As I told you, we should change the format of comments such as "Roca was a genocida" to something like "There's a current argument on the number of deaths of Native Americans during the Conqest of the Desert commanded by Roca, whom the popular belief, together with some historias such as Pigna, point him as the responsable of such controversial genocide". Mariano(t/c) 07:18, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Well, in the current version, it is stated there is a debate about whether it was a genocide or not. However, that discussion, as far as I can see, is not on the number of deaths, but on the intentions (and other circumstancial evidence). Now, I won't devour history books for this purpose, but if someone cites a source saying deaths were around 10 thousand, then we add that figure and say 1k according to Floria and this site and 10k according to X. And that's it, I guess. YoungSpinoza 13:53, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

The title of genocide comes also form the ideology linked to the Conquest. It's shocking to read from Sarmiento "Se los debe exterminar sin ni siquiera perdonar al pequeño", and Roca had similar comments[2].

On the other hand, the frequent malones atacks from the aboriginal had also produced a number of casualties among the 'whites' including women and children.

• 10,656 deaths -C. Martínez Sarasola,1992:570 (not counting deaths by fanime, cold, etc).

Mariano(t/c) 15:01, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Well, I checked it. Even though personally I would disregard the sources (both bartolomé and sarasola are antropologists compromised with the indigenous cause, not historians, and just by reading they depart from a despective view towards argentine historiography), the source should be included. Yet, I believe it makes reference to the deaths in all the conquest process (from 1870 to the conquest of chubut, santa cruz and the south of rio negro in 1882-1884), not just Roca's campaign. Anyways, I suggest you include the reference to "Mis paisanos los indios", but I think the link is pointless since its in spanish. YoungSpinoza 15:20, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Please, check my edits. Mariano(t/c) 10:20, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

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