Talk:Julius Harrison

Works

I know this list of works should be in chronological order, but I was unable to find dates for most of them. There are many sources of information about Harrison, but while descriptions of the music are long, complex, and mostly subjective: Gentle, undemonstrative English pastoral music - cow pat stuff, heard it all before - you might say? Think again, or rather listen again. How many times do you have to pass a hedge before you notice there are a million things to be seen in it? Go have another look - or do I mean another listen? details about the person are sparse.'--Kudpung (talk) 05:58, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

Images

There's a problem with using all those album covers. They have been uploaded as "fair use" but see: Wikipedia:Fair use#Unacceptable use Voceditenore (talk) 07:17, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing this out. I have had the images deleted as per WP:CSD G7. --Kudpung (talk) 03:39, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Since the subject is deceased, it would be OK to add an image of him to the top of the article, provided you write a "fair use" rationale. You need to find a photo where you know who the photographer/copyright holder is, such this one. If you need an example of how to write a fair use rationale in cases like this, see File:Vincent Dethier 1915-1993.jpg. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 17:30, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Works lists

These need work, mainly because the very first list under Selected works has a bunch of stuff with no indication of what the compositions are. They should probably be put into the relevant categories which appear below that list. For example, Autumn Days was composed in 1952 and is for solo piano. This page at britishmusiccollection.org.uk may be of help with that. Voceditenore (talk) 18:32, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

Since the entire list was overly long, I've moved it to List of compositions by Julius Harrison per standard practice, and found info on the uncategorized works and moved them to the appropriate sections. There are still some pre-existing items in various sections that do not have dates. Feel free to edit the list article, and/or bring back some of the items to this article (but of course only selections, not the entire overly long list). Softlavender (talk) 12:05, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

Further sources

Please feel free to add to this list of further sources to cull information from and/or use as citations. I have also added a template at top of this talk page (under the banner) to aid finding further sources. Softlavender (talk) 10:41, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

• http://www.musicweb-international.com/scowcroft/Composerconductors3.htm
• http://www.requiemsurvey.org/composers.php?id=371
• https://books.google.com/books?id=g-FzJC-B51EC&pg=PA200
• http://landofllostcontent.blogspot.com/search/label/Julius%20Harrison
• http://landofllostcontent.blogspot.com/2008/04/julius-harrison-bredon-hill.html
• https://books.google.com/books?id=Q7ikDAAAQBAJ&pg=PA203&lpg=PA203
• http://www.jstor.org/stable/912768
• [1]

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Julius Harrison/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Syek88 (talk · contribs) 20:03, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

I would be very happy to review this article although it may take me as long as a week. I have now read the article twice and have only one major comment: that the article does not cite Geoffrey Self's biography other than as "further reading". The article does not draw from what must be by far the most in-depth source ever written about Julius Harrison. That explains the article's brevity and the fact that it largely walks the reader through biographical details (appointments, compositions, etc) without colour and depth. That colour and depth would no doubt need to come from sources such as Self's biography.

Having said all of that, nowhere in the Good Article Criteria does this seem to be relevant. The article needs to be verifiable (Criterion 2) and broad (Criterion 3). It does not need be a 'thorough and representative survey of the relevant literature' (compare Featured Article Criterion 1c). For that reason I would not fail the article on this ground and I am likely to have only minor comments from here. I felt I should put the above on the record in case anyone later questions why the article passed. Syek88 (talk) 20:03, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for your valued comments, Syek88. I unfortunately do not have access to Self, that is why it is mentioned only as further reading and not used expand or to source any content. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 20:30, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

Another contributor to the article has now added information from Self and it is now cited as a source. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 20:59, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

Just a note: The info that Tim Riley added cited to Self is not actually from the biography book, but from the article on Harrison in The New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians: [2]. -- Softlavender (talk) 11:26, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

Sorry if some of these comments appear to be pernickety:

• "also known for his conducting of operatic works" - at first I thought this might be too narrow, given that he also conducted non-operatic works, but the published materials uniformly make the same kind of statement. Clearly the consensus is that operatic conducting stood out from his orchestral conducting.  Done
• "founder member" - "founding member"? British English (Collins Dictionary)
• "He was the eldest in the family of four sons and three daughters" - this sentence would make more sense without "in the family": it would be shorter and there could be no suggestion that he was older than his own parents. Also, a comma after Harrison might help.  Done
• I suggest linking "Dame school". Many international readers will not know what one is.  Done
• "In Worcestershire, at the age of 16" - the two introductory words "In Worcestershire" appear superfluous. The preceding paragraph was set in that county and he hasn't yet moved anywhere.  Done
• What are "Cambridge local examinations"? Probably among the most important school exams in the UK and now also in Europe. Linked.  Done
• Did he write the libretto for Cleopatra? Assuming the answer is no, it might be good to say so to avoid any suggestion that the Times was criticising him. The libretto was written by Gerald Cumberland. There is an article on Cumberland in the fr.Wiki which I will shortly translate.  Done
• "Harrison, together with Pitt and Eugene Goossens, joined him as assistant conductors." - The commas and the plural clash. Perhaps, more simply: "Harrison, Pitt and Eugene Goossens joined him as assistant conductors."  Done
• "Although obliged to earn a living by conducting to the detriment of his composing" - This unduly repeats a sentence from earlier in the article. The same idea can and should be expressed twice - readers rarely read from top to bottom - but the use of almost exactly the same words is jarring.  Done
• Early in the article it is "Ballade for Strings" and later it is "Ballade for string orchestra". It's known as both.

Kudpung's comments in bold. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 09:06, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

Thank you, Kudpung and Softlavender. I am happy with the responses and changes and will close the review as successful. I note as an aside that the Self biography also appears to be available from many public libraries. Syek88 (talk) 19:33, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

A review/overview of the Self biography

There is a review and overview of the Self biography here: [3]. I hope that helps. We can cull from it, cite it, link to it. Softlavender (talk) 10:54, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

• Also, if anyone really wants to obtain the book itself, it can be very pricey but I've found it for around $50 (shipping included), on BookFinder.com: [4]. Click the link that says "change shipping destination/currency" to find the exact correct parameters for your location. Softlavender (talk) 11:08, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

Let's change the citation for Cleopatra

One of the current citations for Cleopatra is pretty dismal IMO, because it is so negative and cryptic:.

References

Can we switch it out to one or more of the following?

• highlighted: [5]; shortlink: https://books.google.com/books?id=N_E2AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA270
• highlighted: [6]; shortlink: https://books.google.com/books?id=1gzlAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA67
• http://ml.oxfordjournals.org/content/75/2/309.extract
• http://www.bris.ac.uk/news/2016/march/the-vision-of-cleopatra.html
• http://www.worcesternews.co.uk/news/7764894.Worcestershire_s_other_composer/ (gives incorrect date)
• http://www.concertprogrammes.org.uk/html/search/verb/GetRecord/5046/

-- Softlavender (talk) 10:49, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

@Softlavender:, Except that one source says te Norwich Festival cantata prize was 1907 and another says 1908. Who do we believe? Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 12:59, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

Hi Kudpung, I've been off-wiki for a couple of days. I just now took a re-look at all the links I posted above, and they all state 1908 except the 2001 Worcester News article, which I've now crossed out. Would you agree to using one of the others as a replacement for the Jeffrey Green book (which is a biography of Samuel Coleridge-Taylor)? Softlavender (talk) 22:25, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

@Softlavender:. I don't mind. Do whatever you think fit. The important thing is accuracy in Wikipedia. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 22:35, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

OK, I've used the two secondary sources above, rather than the primary-source concert reviews/lists. Softlavender (talk) 23:36, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

Conundrum

Hi all, I happened just now to carefully read the 1994 Music & Letters review of Geoffrey Self's 1993 biography book on Harrison [7], and it contradicts something that's in this wiki article, something whose source I can't check because I don't currently have a subscription to Grove online.

Here's the rub: The Music & Letters review of Self's book says:

Self recognizes that large-scale works were not Harrison's forte, although he goes a long way beyond the call of duty in analysing the Mass in C (with rather indistinct musical examples). On the other hand, Harrison had a deft hand with a small orchestra, and his charming Worcestershire Suite, and Bredon Hill, for violin and orchestra, fall happily into the pastoral mood of the 1920s.

Our wiki article reads (emphasis mine):

His biographer, Geoffrey Self, writes that after 1940 Harrison wrote a series of substantial works; he notes particularly Bredon Hill and the Violin Sonata (1946), works which, in Self's view, are influenced respectively by Brahms and Vaughan Williams. Self rates Harrison's finest works as the Mass in C (1936–47) and the Requiem (1948–57), which he describes as "conservative and contrapuntally complex, influenced by Bach and Verdi respectively [with] a mastery of texture and a massive yet balanced structure".

References

I'm concerned about this contradiction and the accuracy of the underscored text. I found another iteration of the Self quotation itself, without the superlative accolade, here: [8]. It's not clear to me when the Grove profile was written, or why (if he did) Self would have changed his mind. I'm going to ping Tim riley, who added the text in question [9], and ask him to double-check the wording in Grove. If we are at all unsure about this contradiction, would it perhaps not be best to word it like the source I just gave ([10]) -- that is, without the superlative/accolade? Alternatively, we could perhaps omit "rates Harrison's finest works as" entirely, or perhaps substitute the term "most substantial" for the word "finest".

I would be interested in everyone's take on this. Softlavender (talk) 00:15, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

• New Comment: Suggestion: An alternate possibility of wording:

His biographer, Geoffrey Self, writes that after 1940 Harrison wrote a series of substantial works; he notes particularly Bredon Hill and the Violin Sonata (1946), works which, in Self's view, are influenced respectively by Brahms and Vaughan Williams. He notes that Harrison's Mass in C (1936–47) and Requiem (1948–57), both of which he describes as "conservative and contrapuntally complex", were "influenced by Bach and Verdi respectively [with] a mastery of texture and a massive yet balanced structure".

Or:

His biographer, Geoffrey Self, writes that after 1940 Harrison wrote a series of substantial works; he notes particularly Bredon Hill and the Violin Sonata (1946), works which, in Self's view, are influenced respectively by Brahms and Vaughan Williams. He describes Harrison's Mass in C (1936–47) and Requiem (1948–57) as "conservative and contrapuntally complex, influenced by Bach and Verdi respectively [with] a mastery of texture and a massive yet balanced structure".

-- Softlavender (talk) 02:04, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

• UPDATE: Tim riley emailed me the exact full text of the Grove entry. I have now edited the wiki passage in a way which accords sufficiently with that and which no longer contradicts the review of Self's book. I think this is resolved now, and this thread can be hatted or archived if desired. Softlavender (talk) 23:22, 22 December 2016 (UTC)