Talk:Julius Nepos/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Iazyges (talk · contribs) 18:54, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

Will start soon. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 18:54, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

Criteria

GA Criteria
GA Criteria: 1 1.a Y 1.b Y 2 2.a Y 2.b Y 2.c Y 2.d Y 3 3.a Y 3.b Y 4 4.a Y 5 5.a Y 6 6.a Y 6.b Y

• No DAB links  Y
• No dead links  Y
• No missing citations Y

Discussion

• "Williams & Friell 1998" is not in the Bibliography section.

Oops, added. Ichthyovenator (talk) 23:13, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

• Sources look good other than as mentioned above, older sources such as Bury and Gibbon are used well for support, rather than narrative. Even where sources do not come from strictly academic presses, they come from respected Historians that I can find no fault with. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 22:05, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

Prose Suggestions

Please note that almost all of these are suggestions, and can be implemented or ignored at your discretion. Any changes I deem necessary for the article to pass GA standards I will bold.

Lede

• being the last widely recognised claimant to the position. would specify this more, by "widely recognized" does this mean by the citizens, the Eastern Roman Empire, or countries in general? If citizens, I would suggest being the last claimant to the position to be widely recognized by the people., if ERE, suggest being the last Western Roman emperor recognized by the Eastern Empire, if countries suggest as the last claimant recognized by most nations and tribes.

My impression is that everyone recognized him - Odoacer, the Roman Senate, the eastern empire etc. (thus by extension also the people, but in terms of documented recognition everyone influential). They just didn't let him come back to Italy. Ichthyovenator (talk) 23:13, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

Understandable then.

• Whether Nepos becoming emperor had been the plan in the east is unclear suggest Whether the original intention of the invasion was to install Nepos as western emperor is unclear

Changed to your suggestion. Ichthyovenator (talk) 23:13, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

• foederati (barbarian allies/vassals) you may wish to shorten this to just barbarian allies and explain them a bit further in the body.

I agree that "foederati (barbarian allies/vassals)" is awkward but I also think that "reduce the Burgundians into barbarian allies" sounds strange, would it be possible to use "foederati" here without an explanation or is there perhaps another option? (or maybe I'm just wrong) Ichthyovenator (talk) 23:13, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

I think you could do that; it is far from a major element of the lede, and anyone impatient enough to read half a page has a link to click. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 11:38, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

Done. Ichthyovenator (talk) 22:01, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

• Zeno being momentarily overthrown in Constantinople by the usurper Basiliscus suggest Zeno's brief overthrowal in Constantinople by the usurper Basiliscus; momentary doesn't really work here IMO because he reigned for about two years.

Yeah, changed to your suggestion. Ichthyovenator (talk) 23:13, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

• Nepos never gave up his claim to the western empire suggest Nepos never renounced his claim to the western empire

Done. Ichthyovenator (talk) 23:13, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

• but otherwise mostly ignored him must suck to be left on read as a former emperor.

Yeah, being the most powerful man in the world on paper and no one listening to anything you're actually saying does not sound like much fun. I'm leaning towards that the real reason Nepos never got any help to take back Italy was that Zeno quite liked the idea of being the only emperor. Ichthyovenator (talk) 23:13, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

• Salona (perhaps Diocletian's Palace) suggest perhaps in Diocletian's Palace -- Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 21:30, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

Done. Ichthyovenator (talk) 23:13, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

Background

Geopolitical background

• the last western emperor of Theodosius' dynasty suggest the last western emperor of the Theodosian dynasty and add link to Theodosian dynasty

Done. Ichthyovenator (talk) 22:01, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

• ...second time in less than fifty years, this time by the Vandals. feel like you should elaborate on this more, perhaps ...second time in less than fifty years, this time by the Vandals under Gaiseric (or whatever of the 500 names he has you choose to use), who captured Valentinian's widow, Licinia Eudoxia, and two of his daughters, Eudocia and Placidia.

Done. Ichthyovenator (talk) 22:01, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

Ancestry and Family

• possibly being a niece of Leo I suggest removing being.

Done. Ichthyovenator (talk) 22:01, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

Appointment

• By appointing Nepos, Leo not only gave the western empire what he considered to be a suitable ruler, but also rid himself of a possible rival in the east and at the same time asserted his authority in the west. this seems at odds with the lede's Whether the original intention of the invasion was to install Nepos as western emperor is unclear, but in any event, he was quickly recognised as the legitimate western emperor by Zeno. Is it that Leo thought Nepos would make a good emperor if the situation where Nepos could seize power directly came about, but this was not the real intention? Or is this an issue with the differing desires of Leo and Zeno, where Leo explicitly wanted Nepos to take the throne and Zeno sort of went with it? Or even just that Leo privately thought that Nepos would make a good ruler?

I've edited this part: my understanding is that there is no records of Nepos being appointed as emperor (or emperor-designate) by Leo I or Zeno before he left for Italy. Leo I seems in certain aspects as more interested in becoming emperor of the entire empire himself. It's plausible he was designated emperor, especially given that he was recognised as such effectively immediately by Zeno, but it is also possible that it was a surprise power-grab that was recognised in the east simply because it would be pointless not to at this point. Ichthyovenator (talk) 22:01, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

Passed. -- Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 05:13, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

Reign

Emperor in Italy

• where he was promptly proclaimed Caesar was he acclaimed by the troops, or declared such by Zeno? I'm assuming the senate didn't do it. For any of these cases, mention who proclaimed him Caesar.

I don't think who was behind the appointment is recorded. Given that he appears to have been made Caesar before he deposed Glycerius, the senate is unlikely to be behind it, yes. I've added to the note that Jordanes wrote that Zeno appointed him Caesar, but Jordanes is too late to act as confirmation of that and the details of Jordanes' account of Nepos' accession do not match other, earlier accounts. Ichthyovenator (talk) 22:01, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

• but time proved to be too short suggest but he was unable to arrive in time.

Done. Ichthyovenator (talk) 22:01, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

Exile in Dalmatia

• Nepos never gave up his claim to the western empire suggest gave up be changed to renounced here as well.

Done. Ichthyovenator (talk) 22:01, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

• if Nepos did not do so first suggest if Nepos would not.

Done. Ichthyovenator (talk) 22:01, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

Legacy

• which may, in addition to being the last western emperor to rule Italy, have contributed to him being viewed as the last emperor over Nepos. The Influence of Wordplay upon Historiography...

Indeed.

• Ralph W. Mathisen suggest Roman historian Ralph W. Mathisen

Done. Ichthyovenator (talk) 22:01, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

Notes

• which means that Zeno might have been accepted as emperor there very swiftly suggest which would mean that Zeno's rule was swiftly accepted.

Done. Ichthyovenator (talk) 22:01, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

• Alternatively, he might have been proclaimed Caesar at Ravenna. In any case, he was made Caesar before he was made Augustus I'm assuming there's a source difference here; might be good to explain which sources say which.

I've cleared this up in the note: the claim that he was invested at Ravenna comes from later sources than the claim that he was invested at Portus, so most likely Portus is correct. Ichthyovenator (talk) 22:01, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

• That is all my suggestions, once the issue surrounding imperial intentions with Nepos becoming emperor is more clear I will pass the article. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 12:16, 25 August 2021 (UTC)