Talk:Justin Gaethje

Untitled

I don't know how many ways I can prove to you that Justin Gaethje is worth of a page. He just won his 16th straight fight in a nationally televised championship match on NBCSN. All you have to do is search his name and you'll find page and page of coverage.

This story was just published today from one of the most respected combat sports writer's around on Vice.com:

Justin Gaethje: Thriving Amid Chaos

You can find coverage of his fight all over NBCSports.com: NBCSports.com MMA

I can list hundreds of stories about him and how he's considered one of the best Lightweight Fighters in MMA.

Please, can we get this page published?

Deleted sources

To the guy who created the article. The sources provided for Gaethje are of a much higher quality than what was already there, the mere fact that they are non-english does not exclude them. see WP:NONENG. You also use biased language that makes it sound as if you are promoting the fighter or are friends with him. I'm not saying you are, but I kindly ask you to keep the high quality brazilian news sources in, and remove biased information. Thank you. MMA blogs are not "well sourced" whereas sources from mainstream Brazilian sources are. You even deleted english newspaper sources. I'll kindly ask you to add the sources back because you can't delete a reliable source from an article. Regarding the "excessive" sources. Most of your sources are MMA blogs, and not actual news sources (such as the sources I presented). And I didn't actually delete any of your sources. At a minimum my sources should be added back. Jumbotron5000 (talk) 20:03, 17 March 2016 (UTC) I'm gonna meet you in the middle for now. There's absolutely no reason to delete the sources because the main issue preventing this article from going into the mainspace is its lack of credible articles. And I present three daily newspaper articles, as well as several Brazilian magazines as well as brazilian television outlets, covering Gaethje. If you want this article to have a home on Wikipedia then please leave the citations be as the sources it has now are severely lacking. Jumbotron5000 (talk) 01:40, 18 March 2016 (UTC)

@Jumbotron5000: You linked to something which specifically says English sources are preferred for the English-language wikipedia, and I don't see how a Brazilian source is more reliable than a source such as mmafighting or mmamania, Gaethje is not Brazilian, he has no ties to Brazil and did not fight in Brazil at WSOF 29, also there's really no need for 6 sources for his win at WSOF 29, it was a one-minute long fight in a well-televised event, it's not an opinion that needs to be verified by dozens of sources, it's a fact, he won at 1:43 of the first round via TKO.

And this draft would already have been made into an article (see the comments at the top of the draft) if Gaethje met the notability guidelines. The article is adequately sourced for creation, but the subject is supposedly not notable. Sources that are needed at the moment are ones that show Gaethje has fought three or more times in a top-tier organisation, which don't exist at this time since he has never fought in a top-tier organisation. Zaostao (talk) 03:02, 18 March 2016 (UTC)

Aye. By this point, I think it's just mysterious tradition keeping this out of mainspace, not a lack of significant, secondary coverage. Citation overkill both looks sloppy and desperate. Nothing wrong with Portuguese, but there's a whole other Wikipedia for that. MMAFighting.com is Ariel Helwani's home. He's the reigning MMA Journalist of the Year since 2010. That gives the entire site legitimacy. Maybe replace some here or there (with another English source), but nothing is controversial enough for two. InedibleHulk (talk) 18:52, 18 March 2016 (UTC)

it's because the citations do not establish his notability, and for some reason you all insist on deleting citations (those Brazilian sources are more legitimate than some mma website). He would get a pass under GNG if you include the Portuguese sources, or use them in some way. As long as they are plugged in. And what of the biased language in the article? Like where is talks about him being "typically aggressive." We might have to go through the dispute resolution protocol because you two aren't approaching getting this article moved into in the best way possible. The mere fact that they are in Portuguese is irrelevant. Those citations are INTERNNATIONAL, which is one of the criterion for establishing notability through extensive coverage, which Gathje has.

If you think Portuguese newspapers are what will change the deletionist's minds, you could just point them to this talk page (or directly to the papers). If they add nothing for verifiability purposes, they're just clutter (and most readers here can't read them). Gaethje is typically aggressive. That's not an opinion, it's just how he rolls. InedibleHulk (talk) 19:28, 20 March 2016 (UTC)

Yeah, notability in Brazil means very little for having an article for a mixed martial artist accepted on the English wikipedia, and you're misunderstanding what the "national or international media" criterion means. Gaethje is just a mixed martial artist, recognition of him fighting in the WSOF means nothing apparently as it is not a top-tier organisation, so recognition of him achieving this purportedly meaningless feat nationally or internationally is all the same. The criterion is intended for special cases, such as Nick Newell who fought despite a congenital impairment and received lots of media attention because of this unique trait, not just for being a successful mixed martial artist like is the case with Gaethje. Zaostao (talk) 07:08, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

I'm not sure Nick Newell gets the coverage in Brazil that Gaethje gets for fighting all these Brazilian opponents. Not to mention Palomino who is from Peru. His international coverage absolutely matters, and is not being given its due weight. This is an English language Wikipedia but English/American sources are not the center of the universe. Jumbotron5000 (talk) 18:14, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

Please point to a guideline saying that there is such a thing as too many sources? Btw: the average wikipedian will think mmafighting is a joke. It's just some website that happens to have a journalist connected to it. Also; please plug this source in where necessary. Or I will tomorrow. Maybe start a section talking about his endorsements because r seems to be a topic of ongoing coverage http://www.eacourier.com/sports/safford-s-gaethje-signs-deal-with-fuzion-vapor/article_c39e6c54-1158-11e5-a0ff-67a6c22d487d.html http://www.eacourier.com/sports/another-endorsement-deal-for-wsof-champ-gaethje/article_3246c20c-37e5-11e5-8e39-63a380f2fc8f.html Jumbotron5000 (talk) 06:20, 19 March 2016 (UTC)

That describes every news site. No joke. Far more readers know and trust MMAFighting.com than have ever heard of The Greeley Tribune, or its writers, or Greeley at all. Endorsements seem fine. InedibleHulk (talk) 19:28, 20 March 2016 (UTC)

Did you know Horace Greeley founded the New-York Tribune? Now you can't unknow it. InedibleHulk (talk) 19:33, 20 March 2016 (UTC)

Your point is taken. But that doesn't make it comparable to a newspaper for our purpose, which is trying to get JG notable. MMAfighting is not useful for establishing JG's notability as far as WP:GNG goes. Oh, and helwani isn't writing the articles in question, and neither, in this case, is Greeley. Also, I'll say it as many times as is necessary. MMAfighting.com is a BLOG, not a newspaper, and therefore are not equal with newspapers such as the Greeley Tribune, or the Las Vegas Journal-Review, or the Orlando Sentinel, or even the Eastern Arizona Courier. Try to do JG a favor and help to find some legit news sources, m'kay? Jumbotron5000 (talk) 11:22, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

It's legit enough for all the existing articles it's used in. Doesn't suddenly become unreliable in a non-existent one, even if you say "blog" ten more times. InedibleHulk (talk) 16:36, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

friend. The blog posts are good for citing stuff, but not for establishing notability through wp:GNG. They're only useful to an extent. Jumbotron5000 (talk) 16:46, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

Where'd you read that? InedibleHulk (talk) 17:10, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

wp:blogs. Mmafighting.com is a blog. I also pointed out before that Helwani is not the one penning these posts, at least not the ones I read. Jumbotron5000 (talk) 18:09, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

That's for Wordpress and shit. You should be looking at WP:NEWSBLOG for the international journalism sort. Not sure why you're repeating the Helwani bit. Chuck Mindenhall and Luke Thomas are veteran pros, too, though. InedibleHulk (talk) 18:47, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

I didn't bring up Helwani originally.mmafighting is in SB nation. The B is for blog. Im sure the two you brought up are great at what they do. Which is blogging. Jumbotron5000 (talk) 06:21, 22 March 2016 (UTC)

please add in this source where you feel it would go best. Or I can do it tomorrow or something. But our guy is getting national (and international, and when this comes up for review I hope people take into account all of his Brazilian coverage. Thank you for leaving the Peruvian piece. It's key we establish that there is a significant amount of local, national, and international coverage for gaethje, and we can and actually are doing that) attention and should not have a problem getting moved into its own article space. Real news over blogs like mmafighting, please. http://www.greeleytribune.com/news/21073036-113/former-unc-all-american-wrestler-gaethje-to-headline-mma Jumbotron5000 (talk) 06:42, 19 March 2016 (UTC)

in this spirit of not having citation overkill, I'm going to swap out some of the mmafighting/mmamania blog posts with some of the actual journalistic sources I have brought to the table. Jumbotron5000 (talk) 22:48, 19 March 2016 (UTC)

Which one is your favourite for the WSOF 29 result, because four is still ridiculous. InedibleHulk (talk) 19:28, 20 March 2016 (UTC)

I've streamlined it to three by removing the one which contained Matt Mitrione in the title, and not Gaethje. Citing an article which says that Gaethje is less notable that Matt Mitrione doesn't help our case that Gaethje is worthy of his own article. Zaostao (talk) 07:08, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

I'm going to object, and disagree. The Las vegas journal review is a daily newspaper with a ciruclation of over 150,000 copies. It needs to stay. And please respond to my previous objections as well. Specifically the one about the biased language in the article. Or I will have to refer this entire situation to mediation And please be more clear when deleting sources in the future. It is known on wikipedia that an article need not be specifically about the subject. As long as it is not a trivial mention then it can be used as a source. There exists no valid reason to use a blog post over a newspaper article. Also. I swapped the mmafighting blog post for the las vegas review (a daily newspaper). I would advise we also delete the mmajunkie article because though it is affiliated with usa today it is not given much weight when compared to NBC and the las vegas review. Feel free to add back in the mmafighting source, although if we are enforcing citation overkill it would make sense not to. Also: deleting the Las Vegas Journal-Review articles goes against this quoted principle in GNG as follows: "Significant coverage is more than a trivial mention, but it need not be the main topic of the source material." It is not a trival mention of JG, but he is also not the main topic of the source. furthermore, using an article with Mittrione in the title doesn't say that gaethje is less notable. Honestly, your contention doesn't even really make sense.Jumbotron5000 (talk) 11:08, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

You are either very naive, or intentionally obtuse. I'm going to go with intentionally obtuse so i'll pick up on this after my draft has been reviewed again. Zaostao (talk) 14:11, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

I might say the same about you. I hope for both our sakes it gets approved this time through. You still haven't addressed my concerns though. Like about the non-English sources. So I'm gonna refer this situation. This article NEEDS those international news sources and are much better for establishing notability than some blog posts from from mmafighting.com Jumbotron5000 (talk) 16:43, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

Comparison

Checkout this article for deletion and consider some of the arguments being made. Several asserted that McKee passed WP:GNG, and he had had way less media references than JG. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Antonio_McKee It seems like if JG were not a fighter but some other person mentioned in the media, international and in the USA, he would be deemed notable. Jumbotron5000 (talk) 08:03, 22 March 2016 (UTC)

Probably, but another problem is simply being Justin "I Don't Have A Wikipedia Page" Gaethje. The longer he runs with that gimmick, the more it comes to define him, like having one arm is Newell's thing or fighting like crap is Kimbo's. Fun Fact: He got his Wikipedia page in 2005, over two years before his first pro fight. Nevermind reliable secondary coverage, for the first five months, it didn't even have content. It was a simpler time, but maybe Gaethje would do well to ask for his World Series release and get famous competing for WorldStar. InedibleHulk (talk) 20:41, 22 March 2016 (UTC)

For some reason, the edit previous to April 2005 was in May 2008. InedibleHulk (talk) 20:52, 22 March 2016 (UTC)

Mickey Gall was recently deleted, despite the sounder case. Since the closer gave no reason for deleting, I'll assume it's because he's only a white guy with two arms. How else can you explain @Papaursa: and his reasoning for Kimbo? InedibleHulk (talk) 21:12, 22 March 2016 (UTC)

lol there were 4 votes. They call that consensus? And I can't actually see the old article to determine if what you claim is valid or not.Jumbotron5000 (talk) 22:40, 22 March 2016 (UTC)

Which claim is that? InedibleHulk (talk) 23:34, 22 March 2016 (UTC)

no argument here about gall. I looked him up and he's only notable for one fight, rather than the prolonged coverage gaethje has seen in national and international news media. Not a valid comparison at all.Jumbotron5000 (talk) 22:45, 22 March 2016 (UTC)

I was comparing him to Kimbo and Newell. He's far less quirky. And so is Gaethje, next to them. His vanillaness hurts him here. Not sure where you (and others) only see one notable fight. The Templeton, Jackson and Punk fights were all covered in-depth. The first one just wasn't anticipated. But yeah, no question Gaethje deserves an article more. InedibleHulk (talk) 23:40, 22 March 2016 (UTC)

Recent decline

Progress has been made as the article was rejected on grounds the article is not written with a neutral POV. I originally overhauled the article to have a neutral tone yet it was reversed with claims the changes were "deleterious." Because the article has been deemed as not having a neutral POV, I'm going to go through and make it neutral sounding and get rid of the peacock mentions such as the "typically aggresive" quip. Typically aggressive or not this is not neutral. Jumbotron5000 (talk) 10:22, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

Renamed

I renamed the article to Justin Gaethje (fighter) from Justin Gaethje (artist). The latter was probably to get around the salt but is completely contrary to naming conventions.Peter Rehse (talk) 10:19, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

Good to see this finally exists, whatever it's called. InedibleHulk (talk) 17:12, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

finally!

sweet nectar — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.78.200.234 (talk) 00:44, 11 June 2016 (UTC)

This article should be deleted.

Justine Gaethje is not a notable fighter. This page should be deleted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:B859:2E20:68B6:EEC3:8452:C792 (talk) 00:40, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

Style

Why is his style listed as wrestling? Yes he has very high wrestling credentials but that’s not what he uses primarily when he fights, he’s even said it himself he doesn’t like to wrestle in the Octagon. His style should be changed to boxing. Gonzoramone (talk) 18:48, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

Gonzoramone Good day. As per [WP:MMA]] guidlines - "Modern MMA requires training several fighting styles, which means that no mixed martial artist uses a single style when fighting. References that describe martial arts ranks (i.e. black belt in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu) and/or martial arts training (i.e. training boxing) are not evidence of fighting style and are not valid to justify a fighting style in an infobox. Do not add your own interpretation of a fighting style. The style parameter should only be used in MMA fighters that have participated professionally or in international competitions in other combat sports (i.e. boxing or kickboxing) and who are notable in said sports and deserve an article for their merits in these other sports (i.e. Antônio Rogério Nogueira, Alistair Overeem). It is suggested to MMA editors that they actively remove the style parameter in infoboxes of MMA fighters that do not meet these criteria.". thank you. Cassiopeia^(talk) 09:11, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 May 2022

Instead of title at stake, it would be more proper to say that Gaethje is eligible. 2607:FEA8:F420:F400:38ED:4456:78F3:8BA1 (talk) 17:27, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. —Sirdog (talk) 04:55, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

Symbolic title

Its pretty well-established that the BMF title is a symbolic title by BBC and SportingNews, as opposed to a weight title. Nswix (talk) 21:05, 2 February 2024 (UTC)