Talk:Justin Hubner

Justin Hubner nationality

Is there a reason Justin Hubner's nationality in the lede continues to be reverted back to Indonesia or ambiguous when he was born in the Netherlands and has most recently represented the Netherlands internationally, including making the Netherlands roster for the Under-19 Euros in Malta this year? By all WP:FOOTY standards, as well as established consensus, that makes him a representative of the Netherlands rather than Indonesia. Anwegmann (talk) 22:36, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Indeed, this article (https://bola.kompas.com/read/2023/12/19/21264668/justin-hubner-dipanggil-di-piala-asia-2023-tambah-persaingan-bagus-untuk#google_vignette) suggests that he is not yet an Indonesian citizen, only having entered the "final stages" of becoming one. Anwegmann (talk) 22:36, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

How could he have played for Indonesia U20 if he doesn't have the nationality? The FIFA rules are clear : no nationality = no eligibility, even from friendly matches. Frenchl (talk) 10:01, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

I agree, that's why I find this so odd. Anwegmann (talk) 16:49, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

didn't he he just took Indonesian Nationality Oath on 6th December?

https://jakarta.kemenkumham.go.id/berita-yankumham/justin-hubner-ambil-sumpah-pewarganegaraan-di-kanwil-kemenkumham-dki-jakarta 158.140.175.140 (talk) 12:37, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

Yes, but that doesn't change all the facts made clear above. He has still most recently represented the Netherlands and was born there. That makes him definitively a "Dutch footballer" until he actually represents the Indonesia senior team. Then his nationality will be ambiguous. A lot of footballers have multiple nationalities. Anwegmann (talk) 04:58, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Place of birth is relevant to define nationality only for countries where there is jus soli at birth, which is not the case for the Netherlands. Frenchl (talk) 15:45, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

I'm not sure about the relevance of this statement. Maybe I'm not understanding your point, which is certainly possible. I'm speaking in terms of the consensus and widespread practice that holds that nationality in the lede either follows the place of birth, if no international representation is available; the place of birth if reinforced by the most recent international representation (which is the case with Hubner); or ambiguity if the place of birth differs from the most recent international representation. He is still eligible for the Netherlands, regardless of Indonesian eligibility, and he has represented the Netherlands more recently than Indonesia. That may change in the (near) future, but it hasn't happened yet. Anwegmann (talk) 17:13, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

From a more general point of view than just the case of Justin Hubner, I think we cannot have a single practice for this. We cannot use "Born in X" for countries where there is no jus soli at birth. In Justin Hubner's case, it was the fact that he was born of a Dutch mother that made him Dutch, not his place of birth, so I think that's what we need to focus on. Frenchl (talk) 18:20, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Ah, okay, I see. I generally agree. The issue I think, though, is that the "Born in..." part of ambiguity is not trying to establish a previous nationality or citizenship. It is instead trying to explain to the average reader why it's not cut-and-dry. In other words, I don't think the "Born in..." is a statement of legal or assumed nationality. It's a brief biographical statement. Anwegmann (talk) 19:17, 28 December 2023 (UTC)