Talk:Kaffir lime

Origin of name

"Kaffir" translates to "infidel" in Arabic (according to Wikipedia) or is an Ethnic slur for blacks. "Kaffir" is an offensive term as it is used in South Africa, analogous to "nigger." A more correct, and inoffensive, term is "makrut lime."

See the Penguin Companion to Food for more information on this topic.

Etkrist 00:30, 21 April 2007 (UTC)etkrist

The thing is, whether or not the name actually originated from that term, it is a name that offends many people today, and it would be very easy to change the term used in the article. There is no compelling reason not to do so. Ellacution (talk) 12:42, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

Hi, it is ok for you to say the name is inoffensive but as a regular visitor in South Africa I learnt pretty quickly that its meaning refers not to colour of skin but to a poor, destitute and usually black person. It could be regarded as highly insensitive to say others take no offense at this term.138.194.244.93 04:24, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

There is a memoir called Kaffir Boy by Mark Mathabane about growing up in apartheid-era South Africa, which points out that "kaffir" is a slur against blacks, particularly South African blacks. 69.203.151.200 05:27, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

It wasn't originally a slur term. It was the general word for Blacks in South Africa. --41.242.207.217 (talk) 17:38, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Two points: 1) can somebody with access to a historical dictionary, e.g. the Oxford, look up the orgins of the name, if it is from the South African English kaffir, then yes the name is of a level of nigger or fag, however as the fruit is from the Indo-Malay region it is possibly from the Arabic kafir, with a corrupted spelling. Either way I would strongly like to see it placed under the title Citrus hystrix; 2) 41.242.207.217, thank you for the history, may I remind you that nigger was a word in polite use, as were many of the racist epithets in history.Brunswicknic (talk) 14:01, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

I am Arabic speaking and I can tell you that the word Kaffir has many meanings, and even the one used to mean infidels is not intended to be derogatory. There are many places in Arabia that start with Kafr which despite the change in spelling means the same in Arabic.. for example Kafr Al Sheikh, Kafr Al Dowar..in Egypt and Kafer Kasim in Palestine. The word Kaffir is derived from the verb 'Ke fe re', which refers to hiding or hidden things. The Kaffir is used against infidels because they hide/disregard the evidence for the existence of a God- according to the Quran anyway. Also consider that this plant is of Southeast Asia,and the number of Arabs who went there is tiny compared to the population to be able to impart their naming on a local fruit. My fear is that this is yet one more case where some persons (may God forgive them) try to grab any chance to defame Islam and Arabia. I do not care if the fruit is named anything, but please do not use the occasion to inject poisonous and unfounded allegations. There is even an attempt between the lines, to connect Arabs with whites who hate blacks, when half of Arabia are either black or have a black strings in them, and the best friend of Mohammed was 'Bilal' who was black, and Muslims say Bilal's words in their call for prayer (athan) five times a day. A new meaning for Kaffir came after Islam to mean extreem.. so you can say Kaffir for extremelyhot peper, and for a extreme beauty of a female face etc. a — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.154.245.170 (talk) 12:42, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

I just noticed that the English word 'cover' is from French 'covir'. This is very near in meaning and sound to the word Kaffir. So this word must be very old, it also seems to appear in Hebrew names.. well before Islam clearly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.200.231.200 (talk • contribs) 22:23, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

No, it's from Old French "covRir" (modern French "couvrir"), ultimately from Latin "cooperīre", meaning "to cover". Bombur8 (talk) 16:05, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

Picture of the leaves

A picture of the leaves would be great. --Apoc2400 11:36, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

The Fruit

I don't know who wrote that the fruit are inedible, but they're not. They're just like limes - I bought a bunch of kaffir limes and drank the juice once. They do taste a little different from the persian limes we see at the supermarket but they're not "inedible"

Great in beer! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 157.182.25.160 (talk) 14:09, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Taste

The article could use objective commentary on the taste of the fruit. "How does it compare to a common lime?", etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.50.226.206 (talk) 19:42, 4 August 2008 (UTC) It may be that when grown in different soils or climates the taste of the fruit is very sour. There are many references on the internet stating the fruit is so sour that it is inedible. In my experience the fruit tastes similar to other lime species and I enjoy it very much. I have also read that it has only a small amount of juice and many seeds. I have also found this to be untrue apart from it's bumpy appearance and strong fragrance it is pretty much the same as any other lime.

Fragrance

used in body deodorants and at least 9 perfumes/colognes by Giorgio Armani, Clinique, Escada, Elizabeth Arden, etc.

the uses

The kaffir lime (juice) is also used to treat dandruff..... 124.13.195.252 (talk) 12:56, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject Food and drink Tagging

This article talk page was automatically added with {{WikiProject Food and drink}} banner as it falls under Category:Food or one of its subcategories. If you find this addition an error, Kindly undo the changes and update the inappropriate categories if needed. The bot was instructed to tagg these articles upon consenus from WikiProject Food and drink. You can find the related request for tagging here . If you have concerns , please inform on the project talk page -- TinucherianBot (talk) 11:37, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Hokkien name

• Possibly 泰國柑 (POJ: Thai3-kok-kam).

• 泰國柑 literally means "Thailand orange". Anthony Appleyard (talk) 08:25, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

Factually questionable and widely offensive etymology

To the South African ear the theory that the word "Kaffir" in the name of the fruit stems from German sounds ridiculous and it should be removed if no substantial citation can be found. For one thing, in German "Käfer" means "beetle", not "bug". The following citation from the Oxford Companion to Food is far nearer the mark, though the connotation of "infidel" is not significant in South African usage, either now, or in the last century or so.--198.54.202.114 (talk) 16:57, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

A friend of mine visited South Africa within the last decade and "kaffir" was still a racial slur. I'm not sure what kind of evidence Wikipedia demands for this, though... -- Phyzome is Tim McCormack 17:52, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

• The German word "Käfer" is likeliest a native German word, not from Arabic. Compare English "cockchafer". Anthony Appleyard (talk) 08:29, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

my local asian store not allowed to sell lime leaves?

I went to my local asian market in Olathe, KS and wanted to buy lime leaves. I was informed that the store was not allowed to sell them, but that they are available a few miles away in Missouri. Any idea why they cannot be sold in Kansas? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.23.240.189 (talk) 02:51, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Combava

Combava are apparantly a hyrid- mention worthy?andycjp (talk) 04:34, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

Quarantine

The interim quarantine information was marginal at best, since it affected all citrus, but only a small part of the world. It's now 2 years old, so I think it has reached its use-by date. I've removed it. Groogle (talk) 07:37, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

revert move request

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. The article will remain at Kaffir lime. It's been pointed out that both the neutral and the derogatory meanings if 'kaffir' derive from the Arabic word for unbeliever, but we are not about to change the name of the Sri Lanka Kaffirs, a people who have chosen that name for themselves, to avoid the bad associations of kaffir in South Africa. WP:COMMONNAME seems to favor Kaffir lime and there is no botanical confusion that would tend to make us prefer Citrus hystrix. It appears that the term 'Kaffir lime' is well-understood and not ambiguous in the plant world. Our article on this fruit connects Kaffir lime to South and Southeast Asia rather than Africa. The Slate article cited below thinks that an Indian origin of the word is possible and that the fruit didn't receive its name in South Africa. EdJohnston (talk) 18:04, 14 July 2014 (UTC) EdJohnston (talk) 18:04, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

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Note: The page was previously unilaterally moved by User:Martin Wisse from Kaffir lime to Makrut lime. I have reverted the move per WP:BRD, but this discussion was started before my reversion. At any rate, discussion regarding the name is still warranted. --Paul_012 (talk) 17:12, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

Makrut lime → Kaffir Lime – page moved controversially to unreferenced alternative name without discussion 124.149.187.125 (talk) 11:56, 4 July 2014 (UTC) It seems to be that the name comes from an ethnic group in sri Lanka, for whom kaffir is not a slur, and that this usage is independent of the ethnic slur see http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat/2014/07/03/kaffir_lime_racist_murky_origins_suggest_a_racial_slur_might_be_responsible.html

I'm not saying it shouldn't be discussed but the move was too hasty. 124.149.187.125 (talk) 11:47, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

• Strongly Agree [with retaining Kaffir lime - Paul_012 (talk)] While well-intentioned, this rename is itself offensive because it constitutes erasure of identity of the Kaffir people of Sri Lanka. If "Kaffir" were just an unrelated non-offensive word then I would have no problem changing it to avoid offense, but as it is the actual name of a people it seems incredibly disrespectful to decide to change it.67.183.201.167 (talk) 15:49, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Erh??? "Erasure of identity of" a people, to me means "genocide", and not merely changing the name of something from a name that mentions ethnicity X to a name which does not, particularly if the item or idea described has no or little direct connection with the X people. This name likely started as meaning merely "native variety of lime fruit"; compare the old name "Kaffir cat" for the African wildcat. See the long disambig page Kaffir. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 05:21, 5 July 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose "Makrut lime". Even if Kaffir lime is found to be undesirable as a title, the binomial Citrus hystrix would be preferable to Makrut, since the latter fails WP:USEENGLISH. (I'm also noting that it should be Makrut, not Makrut lime. --Paul_012 (talk) 17:23, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
• Comnment: Kaffir lime is of course undesirable considering what it means in South African English, but if Makrut is undesirable as well, I have no problems with moving it to the binomial. Also, the kaffir lime has nothing to do with the kaffir people, though obviously the name of both share the same origin. The point is that this is a slur on par with the American N-word in South Africa and other countries. --Martin Wisse (talk) 18:58, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
• Comment: Like Paul_012 and Martin Wisse, I support moving the page to "Citrus hystrix". "Makrut" has some usage in English as a name for Citrus hystrix, and is recommended by some sources, but it's not widely used (see WP:COMMONNAME). The most common vernacular term in English is also highly offensive in South African English. Using the botanical name would seem to be an easy way of finessing this. The etymology isn't really relevant here. The names of the fruit tree, the Kaffir people of Sri Lanka, and the South African slur all seem to derive separately from the Arabic word kafir meaning "non-believer". We should be discussing three options: 1) keeping the current title, 2) changing it to "makrut" and 3) changing it to "Citrus hystrix". Namnagar (talk) 21:02, 5 July 2014 (UTC)
• Support move to Citrus hystrix. Appears to be a case similar to digger pine where that name was seen as offensive. Here, however, I'm less inclined to support the move simply because the word "kaffir" is offensive in South African English. As Namnagar pointed out, the vernacular name of the plant is not derived from the racial slur. We should not move something simply because it is offensive (WP:NOTCENSORED). Kaffir lime is clearly the most commonly used name in reliable sources; it beats Citrus hystrix in both Google Books and Scholar hits, though just by a little in Scholar hits. Since there are more than a few common names for this species, I'd much rather have it titled at the scientific name per WP:FLORA. Rkitko ^(talk) 01:36, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
• Support Kaffir lime. Whether it's offensive in one country or not, it's still the common name in other countries. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:20, 9 July 2014 (UTC)
• Support Kaffir lime. As has been mentioned by several editors above, it is the most common name and it actually has no relation to the racial slur. Jenks24 (talk) 10:09, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The use of Kaffir Lime Vs Makrut Lime in the article.

The entry for this is Kaffir Lime on Wikipedia. This is the name known worldwide. I get it had negative connotations especially in South Africa and that there are people who want to use Makrut Lime (which doesn't make sense since Makrut itself already refers to the whole Lime where the name is sourced from, so it's essentially calling it Lime Lime). That all said, the article has the common name in English listed as Makrut Lime when that's not the common name at all. Almost every store, book, culinary Institute, restaurant, kitchen calls it Kaffir Lime. I guess you can say Makrut is the alternate name. Now why is every instance of the name in the article, under Kaffir Lime in Wikipedia calling it Makrut Lime? The one source listed is Orford good guide which says to use Makrut to avoid negative connotations, but there is no proper citation (ie. Page number, year). I just don't see how the article is listed in common English on Wikipedia as Kaffir Lime (Citrus Hystrix) and then uses Makrut throughout the article for some reason. Thoughts?

• The expression "kaffir lime" is to many undesirable, but Google found "About 2,990,000 results" for it, so it is likely much used. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 15:15, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

Whether or not it is frequently used, it is offensive to people, and there is no reason that a person searching for the more commonly used name couldn’t be redirected to this article if it was named Makrut Lime. As for the point about it being redundant seeing as how makrut means lime, that seems inane, as the average english speaker reading this article will have no knowledge of Thai, where the name makrut originates, and even if they do, it will not hamper their understanding of the article. Ellacution (talk) 12:45, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

Philippines?

There is no proof that the lime is native or even used in the Philippines for cooking.... — Preceding unsigned comment added by TheaxHendible (talk • contribs) 05:33, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

According to GRIN (U.S. National Plant Germplasm System), the species is native to a number of countries including the Philippines, as they list here. They are a reliable source for species distributions. I'm unsure of the fruit's use in Philippine cuisine. Declangi (talk) 08:34, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

Re-opening move discussion

I can't believe this article hasn't been moved yet. Makrut lime and citrus hystrix would both be good places to put it, with a redirect from here. That shouldn't make it difficult for anyone to find the article -- useful redirects happen all the time. In the meantime many people are offended and still impacted by the racial slur in the current title. What gives? Esqg (talk) 20:41, 8 December 2018 (UTC)

There's no racial slur in the current title. This has been discussed before. Offended people need to be less offended; well, actually they don't, they can be as offended as they see fit, it's just that Wikipedia has no role protecting people's feels. WP doesn't censor based on offensiveness. You can always just not read it, if words cause you such awful hurts.

BTW: the term used in recipes is always 'Kaffir', not makrut or hystrix. I have never heard of those terms before. In Wikipedia, we'll be using the common name. MrDemeanour (talk) 23:53, 8 December 2018 (UTC)

Don't call it kaffir lime, We don't call macadamias niggertoes so stop putting a racial slur in it's name. Call it makrut instead ZippyComb (talk) ZippyComb (talk) 15:35, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

Previously it was decided to keep the slur in the name because of the Sri Lanka ethnic group who uses the name. This decision is honestly ludicrous to me. It's well known that people will reclaim slurs for themselves, however doing so does not mean everyone outside an ethnic group has carte blanche permission to use said slur however they like. The people in Sri Lanka are descendants of enslaved africans and have the right to reclaim a slur used against them. Anyone else using slurs is just being racist. Letting racism stand because "everyone does it" is disgusting. Just change the name and add a redirect. Wikipedia can do better and stop promoting racism. There is no excuse for this and I cannot believe how many people are defending it. Meskarune (talk) 08:09, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

AFAICT, Kaffir in Sri Lanka Kaffirs is not a reclaimed slur. It was never a slur for those people. They are and have always been perfectly fine with anyone calling them by the name. It developed as a slur elsewhere, in South Africa, and never became a slur for these people or where they live. Perhaps a small number aware of wordly affairs might dislike it when a South African does so, but there's a good chance even this is rare, at most they might given an alternative name for South Africans uncomfortable calling them by that name. Demanding these people should think something is a slur because it's a slur elsewhere when they don't currently doesn't help them or anyone. The fact it may be a slur elsewhere should be irrelevant to the Sri Lanka Kaffirs, there's no reason why someone has to abandon a name they prefer just because people elsewhere have used that word as a slur in reference to other people. And let's remember the makrut lime name has no connection to the Sri Lanka Kaffirs, so you're basically suggesting a historic connection between them and the plant should be erased just because other people use the word as a slur in different largely unconnected situations which is always problematic. And it's not like Kaffir lime nowadays is only used by Thai people. It's used in several SEA countries with different names. It's fairly common that for a variety of reasons, one name can come to dominate, and that's fine, but that already happened with the Kaffir lime. Arbitrarily chosing the Thai name to replace the historic one because it's a slur elsewhere and to other people is highly problematic. Since the name is a slur in South Africa, it's fine if they use a different name, but it doesn't mean everyone else has to where the word is not a slur and our article suggests that name isn't even makrut lime. Nil Einne (talk) 02:31, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes, there is actually a racial slur in the title. The word is roughly equivalent to the n-word in South Africa. People have literally gone to prison for racial abuse for use of the term. Also, your unfamiliarity with Thai terminology isn't evidence they don't use it. It's only evidence that you're unfamiliar. ZathrasSpawn (talk) 14:12, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

References

etymology

• https://public.oed.com/blog/word-stories-kaffir/
• https://www.nationalgeographic.com/culture/food/the-plate/2014/07/18/a-food-has-an-historic-objectionable-name-should-we-change-it/
• https://slate.com/culture/2014/07/kaffir-lime-racist-murky-origins-suggest-a-racial-slur-might-be-responsible-for-the-fruits-name.html

--Espoo (talk) 20:43, 7 June 2020 (UTC)