Talk:Kafr Bir'im

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Are we sure that it is strictly Melkite? My father's father, who lived there was Maronite (my father's mother was Melkite though.) Theorem4 20:16, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

you are right. bir'im is strictly maronite, iqrit is melkite —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 89.1.101.196 (talk) 17:38, August 23, 2007 (UTC)

you are right, I changed the fitrst sentence... in another place in this article it says the population was melkite and maronite which is the truth... what i know is that it was predominatly maronite with some melkite minority. --Histolo2 (talk) 11:25, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Spelling of names

John Nevard,

• Please provide a source for the spellings "Biram Kfar" and "Kfar Biraam"
• Why do you prefer the incorrect spelling "Ikrit" over the correct spelling "Iqrit"?

--128.139.104.49 (talk) 07:05, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Because the alternative spelling of Ikrit was the main pre-Israel spelling and is still a correct means of spelling the name both are valid.... Benny Morris uses Iqrit so why do you and he prefer the incorrect spelling of Iqrit? See page 506 "Birth of" for Iqrit. and yet other scholars use Ikrit both are understandable. Kfr Bir'em same thing, it is called alliteration. The sound is correct not the spelling. See T E Lawrence's "Seven Pillars of Wisdom" preface pp 19 and 20 for more understanding. So long as the sound is maintained the spelling to arrive at the sound is entirely irrelevant. Try not to get pedantic over the spelling in English of a name that doesn't use the same alphabet....Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 01:31, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Kafar can be spelt many ways in itself, Kufur, Kafr, Kfar, and Kfr all are correct...It only means it is a settlement from a main village....Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 01:52, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Regarding Iqrit: Arabic transliteration rules are quite standard, ق is transliterated as Q while ل is transliterated as K, there's hardly any dispute about this. This is the rule I've seen in pretty much every official British mandate-era document I've seen. In fact, the name of the article is Iqrit, so you would have to go out of your way to spell it Ikrit by redirecting or using a pipe, so it is both inaccurate and futile. I really don't see why you should insist on this.

Regarding Bir'im, you missed my point completely. My concern was mainly with the order of the words "Biram Kfar", which makes no sense in any semitic language. Besides, "Kfar" is Hebrew, it is most certainly not Arabic -- there is a fatha over the kaf and a sukun over the fa so there's no way "Kfar" should be allowed. Anyway, if somebody is to claim X is an alternative spelling of Y, and somebody else disputes it, who bears the burden of proof?--128.139.104.49 (talk) 23:07, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Regarding western standardisation of spelling. The British Government Gazetted all place names to try to standardise the spelling. This is why the British documents use the "official" spelling. Spelling Rules? merely guidelines. PS. I haven't used either. Even so I have seen Ikrit spelt in a variety of fashions in many sources. The spelling seemed to have relied on the dialect of the Arabic. See T E Lawrence's "Seven Pillars of Wisdom" preface pp 19 and 20 for more understanding, and he did go "out of his way" to use as many varieties of spelling place names that he could think of....Tul el-Keram, Beyrout. [1] Palestine remembered use Ikrit and Biram...as does [2] Ha'aretz, someone must have forgotten to teach them your rules.....Biram Kfar I don't know who used it, do you?...Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 02:32, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

palestineremembered.com uses Iqrit [3] and Bir'im [4], unless they are quoting a translation of a Hebrew article... The bottom line is that a standard Arabic transliteration has become widely used, so there's no reason not to use the standard as the main spelling in Wikipedia. In fact, it is used almost everywhere when a transliteration is necessary. By "going out of your way" I was referring to the pipe that was necessary to direct the Ikrit link to the Iqrit article.

"Biram Kfar" was in this article until I removed it, it's a pity you didn't check first what started this thread before joining it.--128.139.104.49 (talk) 08:44, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

It's a pity you are unable to grasp the fact that I didn't put it in, it's a pity you didn't check first.....There are plenty of reasons not to standardise transliterations..Dialect being the greatest.Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 00:59, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

The Ariel Encyclopedia, the most authorative and comprehensive lexicon of the Land of Israel of all time, list it as Kfar Bir'am. Not sure what that means for the article, but I think we need a source with an Arabic spelling with nikud to settle this. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 20:29, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Deletion of text by anon editor

An anon editor deleted the text "In November 1948 most of the inhabitants were evacuated to Jish under the military operation was complete", claiming that "Link leads to the general Hebrew Language "Haaretz" website, and mentions absolutely nothing on the subject". The editor should have assumed good faith, and realised that the url cited was clearly broken. By going to the Haaretz website, I was able in under a minute to find the article cited, and to confirm that (except for the specific mention of Jish) it verified the statement. So I have restored this well-attested information, and request that this editor take greater care in future. Even if s/he was unable to find the correct source, a simple {{citations broken}} tag would have sufficed. RolandR (talk) 09:17, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Abandoned in the Middle Ages?

@Reenem: in this edit two years ago you wrote that the village had been abandoned in the Middle Ages. Do you still have the source available? I have the first two pages here [5] which includes the page 155 in your citation, but the claim is not stated there.

I wonder how archeologists could possibly know for sure that all Jewish inhabitants left the village. There must be a good probability that some of them converted to Christianity or Islam, which would make "abandoned" an incorrect description.

Onceinawhile (talk) 10:02, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

It's been two years so by recollection will be a bit rusty. I think I may have gotten that info (and the source) from the article Kfar Bar'am synagogue, where it was cited. Note that a second source is also cited. Secondly, that phrase can mean two things: the village was abandoned by the Jews but others continued to live there or it was abandoned entirely since the entire population was Jewish. Given that Kfar Bar'am is described as a Jewish village, I'm guessing it was the latter, that the entire population was Jewish and left it, and it was later repopulated by Muslims. Note that there's also no firm consensus on the extent of Jewish conversions to Christianity or Islam in that time period.--RM (Be my friend) 17:46, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

Thanks Reenem

I just looked at the history of the synagogue article and see that it was also you who added the word abandoned back in 2010: [6] The source itself was added in 2009[7] by a now-blocked user so we can't ask them.

I propose to remove this sentence from both articles until we can verify it.

Onceinawhile (talk) 18:25, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

Given that Kfar Bar'am is described as a Jewish village, I'm guessing it was the latter, that the entire population was Jewish and left it, and it was later repopulated by Muslims.

This is entirely your WP:OR. Brusquedandelion (talk) 23:07, 2 June 2024 (UTC)