Talk:Kalawao County, Hawaii

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Despite the fact that the county does not have a county government per se, can we say that it has a county seat? Which (if any) of the three villages could be considered the county seat? --Daniel C. Boyer 14:46, 6 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Several sources on Google list Kalaupapa as the county seat, which sort of makes sense. KeithH 07:06, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Kalawao is recognized as a county in Hawaii's constitution but it doesn't function like one. It lives in law only, most islanders don't know it even exists or heard of Kalawao. The area is popularly referred to as Kalaupapa and associated with the island it's on (which is part of Maui County).

I believe that the area is administered jointly by the NPS and Hawaii DOH. According to my tour guide, there is no sales tax there, nor is there vehicle registration or inspection, nor is car insurance required. Car accidents are handled on the "honor" system. He also said that several years ago, two patients, with poor eyesight, that lived across from each other both backed into the street at the same time, causing a minor accident. So, minor accidents do happen. Jamskatelake (talk) 16:11, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

No longer exists

It looks like Kalawao County (FIPS 15005) was incorporated into Maui County (FIPS 15009). See FIPS changes and Hawaii absentee ballot application
PaulSchreiber (talk) 01:57, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

As of 2021, several sources indicate it still exists as a separate FIPS. There is no indication from the Census that the county status was changed. Unclear if the previous comment was discussing status as a county or FIPS. Also see further discussion below (== Kahului-Wailuku-Lahaina MSA ==). 99.54.135.152 (talk) 15:27, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

Poorest?

It says that Kalawao County "is the poorest county in the United States." and links to Lowest-income_counties_in_the_United_States, which says Buffalo County, South Dakota is the poorest... NS Zakeruga (talk) 01:59, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

It says "ranked by household income" (see the second table on that page), in which Kalawao County is several thousand dollars lower than Buffalo County. Buffalo County is far poorer by per capita income, but that's not the only measure of poverty used by the Census Bureau. Nyttend (talk) 12:29, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Smallest county in area?

Uh, what about New York County, NY?

this nyc? you didn't read too clearly, obviously. manhattan is quite much bigger than a section of cliffs on an already quite small island.

Actually, New York County is only about twice the size, land-area-wise. If you include water, then Kalawao is larger.65.81.28.227 03:28, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Census numbers?

The census numbers given don't really seem to jibe with the fact that the colony started bringing in new patients in 1969, nor this article, which implies that there are only 40 people left in the county, all elderly. According to the census numbers, there are more than 50 people resident there under the age of 45. Any guess on the reason for the discrepency? --Jfruh (talk) 23:41, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

The census numbers include NPS and Hawaii DOH employees Jamskatelake (talk) 16:07, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Air Quality

According to the EPA, this county was ranked as being among the two counties with the cleanest air in of all of the United States. You might consider adding this fact to the article. [1] Goldhunt (talk) 07:45, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Fix the map

If I didnt know which island was Molokai, I would never have seen the tiny red dot marking KC. 24.0.113.90 (talk) 11:15, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

How can the population be increasing?

The population stats show an increase of 7 residents between 2009 and 2010. This contradicts the article which says no new residents are allowed. If that's the case, where did these 7 people come from? The population is too low for anyone to have been missed in 2009, surely? The population numbers also do not jive with the population given for the article on Kalaupapa itself. 68.146.52.234 (talk) 14:42, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

Fixed. Brycehughes (talk) 19:37, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

External links modified

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Kahului-Wailuku-Lahaina MSA

Per the latest Office of Management and Budget report (https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/Bulletin-20-01.pdf, pg. 55), the Kahului-Wailuku-Lahaina Metropolitan Statistical Area consists solely of Maui County. Kalawao County is not included in the definition and so it is erroneous to say that it is, as this article currently does. SamIsMe31 (talk) 20:47, 2 April 2020 (UTC)SamIsMe31

To the best of my knowledge, Kalawao County has not ceased to exist. It therefore is likely still part of the Kahului-Wailuku-Lahaina Metropolitan Statistical Area unless there is a citation proving that it was moved elsewhere. A one-time omission is not enough to indicate that it has been removed. As I mentioned in another discussion elsewhere, this is a small county & therefore prone to being overlooked.

More recent government publications, including one added to the article, has Kalawao County as one of counties making up Kahului-Wailuku-Lahaina, HI MSA -27980.

• "FY 2019 LIST OF COUNTIES (AND NEW ENGLAND TOWNS) IDENTIFIED BY STATE AND METROPOLITAN AREA" (PDF). USDA Rural Development. 2019-07-19. p. 16. Retrieved 2020-04-02.

Peaceray (talk) 20:55, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

It is not a "one-time omission," the MSA has been defined as such since 2018, OMB report linked below. Other governmental agencies may be incorrect in their usage, but a statistical area only exists as defined by the Office of Management and Budget. If their reports do not include a county in a given statistical area, then by definition it is not included. SamIsMe31 (talk) 21:29, 2 April 2020 (UTC)SamIsMe31

• "OMB BULLETIN NO.18-04" (PDF). Office of Management and Budget. 2018-09-14. p. 55. Retrieved 2020-04-02.

The more that I look at it, I think you are confusing the name, Kahului-Wailuku-Lahaina, HI Metropolitan Statistical Area, with the contents. I have seen much early documents that only provided the name of the MSA, but omitted the county or counties.

I am still waiting for a citation that indicates that Kalawao County was moved to another MSA. Right now, I think the RD-SFH-MSAAreaDefinitions.pdf is the best source that we have. This is what it indicates:

   FY 2019 LIST OF COUNTIES (AND NEW ENGLAND TOWNS) IDENTIFIED BY STATE AND METROPOLITAN AREA                 PAGE 16

 15 HAWAII

 ---------------------METROPOLITAN AREA-------------------------------         ---------Counties of FMR AREA within STATE---------------------


 Honolulu, HI MSA -46520
   Urban Honolulu, HI MSA -METRO46520M46520                                     003-Honolulu
 Kahului-Wailuku-Lahaina, HI MSA -27980
   Kahului-Wailuku-Lahaina, HI MSA -METRO27980M27980                            005-Kalawao, 009-Maui

 -----------------------------------------------------NONMETROPOLITAN COUNTIES------------------------------------------------------

 001-Hawaii                   007-Kauai

Please note that all of the State of Hawaii is in one of two metropolitan areas or one of two nonmetropolitan areas. This include Niʻihau (part of Kauai County, Hawaii) & the Northwestern Hawaiian Islands except Midway Atoll because they are part of Honolulu County, Hawaii. Maui County, Hawaii consists of the islands of Maui, Lānaʻi, Molokaʻi (except for the portion of Molokaʻi that comprises Kalawao County), Kahoʻolawe, and Molokini.

All of the State of Hawaii is either in a metropolitan area or one of two nonmetropolitan area. So if Kalawao County is not part of the Kahului-Wailuku-Lahaina, HI Metropolitan Statistical Area, where has it been moved to?

As a former kama'aina, I refuse to accept that Kalawao County no longer exists. I will continue to insist, as the government itself has documented (admittedly inconsistently ), that it is in the Kahului-Wailuku-Lahaina, HI Metropolitan Statistical Area, until I see a citation that indicates it has been reclassified into another area.

Peaceray (talk) 22:30, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

Where is your source that all of Hawaii is contained in OMB-defined statistical areas? Not every county in a state must be considered a part of such areas. Kalawao County is simply not in any Metropolitan or Micropolitan Statistical Areas as defined by the OMB as of the most recent reports on the subject. Counties are only included in such areas if they are connected to a central urbanized county by sufficient shared commuting and employment numbers. Kalawao County certainly still exists as an albeit unique administrative division, given its history, but according to the OMB it does not share enough ties with Maui County to be included in the Kahului-Wailuku-Lahaina MSA. The OMB should be the definitive authority on these matters as that is the entity responsible for defining them. SamIsMe31 (talk) 00:13, 3 April 2020 (UTC)SamIsMe31

I already provided the information from RD-SFH-MSAAreaDefinitions.pdf. In that source, each county in Hawaii is listed as part of one of two metropolitan areas or one of two nonmetropolitan areas. You have only provided OMB documentation regarding the name of the MSA, not its composition. I have provided a citation as to its composition, which includes the county codes. Without further documentation regarding which counties or parts of counties make up the MSA, I can only regard your arguments as original research. Peaceray (talk) 14:42, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

If you would actually look at the OMB reports you would see that on page 55 of both, under List 2, it provides the name and constituent counties for every Metropolitan Statistical Area. The Kahului-Wailuku-Lahaina MSA is listed in both official documents as consisting of ONLY Maui County. And again I would reiterate that it should not matter how other government agencies list such data as they could be mistaken. The OMB, as the official arbiters of statistical areas in the US, should be treated as the definitive authority on the subject. If they do not list a county as being included in a particular statistical area, then it should not be regarded as part of it. SamIsMe31 (talk) 17:12, 3 April 2020 (UTC)SamIsMe31

Yes, I have looked at that. It is a listing of the Principal Cities: Kahului, Wailuku, Lahaina, and the county in which they are, Maui. It does not list county codes. Again, not a list of components.

Look at the map on the Kahului-Wailuku-Lahaina, HI MSA Situation & Outlook Report. By your reasoning, the islands of Lānaʻi & Molokaʻi would be excluded from the from the 27980 MSA as well.Peaceray (talk) 17:28, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

Both Kalawao & Maui counties are also listed as being part of 27980 in this US Census document: "cbsa-est2018-alldata.csv". United States Census Bureau. Archived from the original on 2020-03-04. Retrieved 2020-04-03.. Peaceray (talk) 15:08, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

Oh, & there is this: U.S. Census Bureau, Geography Division (2014-05-07). "Kahului-Wailuku-Lahaina, HI Metropolitan Statistical Area" (PDF). United States Census Bureau. Retrieved 2020-04-03.. That is case closed, more or less. Peaceray (talk) 20:06, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

Also this: "May 2018 OES Metropolitan and Nonmetropolitan Area Definitions". U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics. Retrieved 2020-04-03. Peaceray (talk)

And this: Rodgers, Lynn A. (2019-04-24). "Estimated Median Family Incomes for Fiscal Year(FY)2019" (PDF). U. S. Department of Housing and Urban Development. p. 1. Retrieved 2020-04-03. First, the two counties (islands) that comprise the Kahului-Wailuku-Lahaina, HI will no longer have medians calculated separately by county; the names of these areas will change from the island names (Kalawao and Maui County) to the metropolitan in FY 2019. Peaceray (talk) 20:24, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

Metropolitan Statistical Areas get redefined and adjusted every year or so. As can be seen on this page: Census Metro Delineation Files the latest definition is March 2020. In the relevant delineation file (in the top group on that page), the Kahului-Wailuku-Lahaina, HI Metropolitan Statistical Area consists only of Maui County. This doesn't mean Kalawao was moved to another MSA, it just means it doesn't qualify as being connected enough to the urban area at the core of the Kahului-Wailuku-Lahaina, HI Metropolitan Statistical Area to justify including Kalawao in the MSA. This leaves Kalawao as a rural county, not part of any urban area. This page here: OMB Metropolitan Area Standards details the criteria for defining these areas -- you can see there is a threshold for the percent of a county that commutes to the 'central' county (in this case Maui County) to be included in an MSA. This map: 2020 MSA Wall Map shows the latest definition. If you look closely at Hawaii, you can see that there is a green border between Maui and Kalawao County and that Kalawao County is shaded in white, not green, indicating it is NOT part of the Kahului-Wailuku-Lahaina, HI Metropolitan Statistical Area. (Compare this to the white counties in the contiguous US, etc). All of these materials are produced by the Census Bureau based on the official designation published by the OMB here: OMB 2020 Metropolitan Area Definitions. On page 55 you can see the definition only includes Maui County. This does *not* mean that Kalawao County no longer exists. It is simply not a part of the Kahului-Wailuku-Lahaina MSA (or any other one). Again, these definitions are redefined every one to two years, so other government agencies may use older versions of the standards, or they may even make modifications to suit particular uses. The only official source is the OMB definition, and the Census reference files for the latest 2020 standard are good back up sources. Others could be out of date. It may be worth changing the wording in the article to 'Kalawao County is considered by some government agencies to be a part of the Kahului-Wailuku-Lahaina, HI Metropolitan Statistical Area, although it is not included in the official definition by the Office of Management and the Budget as of March 2020.'

EDIT: All the above not withstanding, it is pretty clear that the Economic Census does consider Kalawao to be a part of the Kahului-etc MSA. Economic Census Geographies Why this differs from the OMB definition and the Census Delineation files is not clear to me, but I can no longer object to referencing Kalawao County's inclusion in the MSA. Ytrepus (talk) 09:37, 8 October 2020 (UTC)