Talk:Kanon (video game)/Archive 3

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

24 or 26 episodes?

There are a couple of websites out there (I'll try to find them again a bit later) that are claiming Kanon 2006 will run 26 episodes instead of 24. I'm hoping it's 26, considering they're already up to Episode 15 and have only finished 2 of the 5 story arcs so far. Aizawa Yuuichi 23:30, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

A couple of websites just doesn't cut it at this stage. It has been widely known since last March that this series was going to run for 24 episodes, so unless you can find a reputable source and cite it too, 24 stands.---- (十八) 05:46, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

I'd be willing to bet that if it does turn out to be 26 episodes, the last two will probably end up being OVAs or some other kind of special (like Air did).--SeizureDog 05:54, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

But if that were the case, then the main series would still be 24 episodes and then we'd either have to add in another OVA box to the template, or yet another anime box, much like with Air in Summer which aired on TV first, technically making it a 2 episode anime. Just pointing that out.---- (十八) 06:12, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

http://cal.syoboi.jp/tid/910/time —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.217.22.128 (talk) 04:01, 30 January 2007 (UTC).

I may be alone here, but I'm still a bit skeptical about that. That site could have merely added in those last two episodes because they didn't know the exact number. There are not episode titles past 21, so I don't think one website is sufficient at this time.--(十八) 05:26, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

On second thought, I'll cite the source and change the info; thanks for the website anon.--(十八) 05:42, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

In lue of the recent release of the 22nd and 23rd episode titles (See List of Kanon episodes), I am going to change it back to 24. And before you start citing that source again, a link on the same page goes to another episode list which only has 24 rows instead of 26 as is seen on the first page.--(十八) 04:19, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

KyoAni's Kanon is over folks. The series ended at episode 24 with the Clannad teaser. (Psychoneko 08:51, 13 April 2007 (UTC))

GA nomination

I am pleased to award this article Good Article status in accordance with the GA Criteria. Congratulations to the lead editors! Kind regards, Anthonycfc ^{[T • C]} 17:01, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Re: Lead and "adult-only"

First off, we can't just link the word eroge in the lead, because that would be a copyedit violation. For foreign terms, it's better to pipe link the term into something more accessable to others that don't know that term first off. This is so the reading of the article is not impeeded at wondering what that word is and since they don't have to click on the word to figure out it's meaning, they can just go along and read the rest of this article instead of going to eroge.

Next, the term adult-only is used because in Japan, by law, only adults (18+) could purchase the game, so for all intents and purposes, since this game was never officially licensed in any other country than Japan, the original version was indeed adult-only. That doesn't mean that minors couldn't play it, just that they couldn't buy it. The same rules apply in America for regular pornography.--(十八) 10:04, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

So it's not adult only, it's... made for adults. 76.178.95.219 11:10, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Yuuichi vs Yūichi

Hmph. I've been a Kanon fan for a long time now and this is the first time I've ever seen "Yūichi" used instead of "Yuuichi" for the protagonist's name. Fansubbers and game translators don't use that spelling, either. And I've read this article in the past. I'm sure it was "Yuuichi" then. I'd better check the article on Air. Maybe "Yukito" has been changed to "Yūkito." After all, they're both long ū's.  :-) Blah, seiyuu redirects to seiyū. Am I wrong? Or are yū? Richard 23 06:00, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia has a convention found at WP:MOS-JP where the form of romanization used is Revised Hepburn romanization. There is a sentence on that page which states:

For transliterations from kanji and hiragana, long o and u are written with macrons as ō and ū respectively.

It's just a Wikipedia thing, though really they mean the same thing, just written two different ways.--(十八|talk) 06:04, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Japan-related articles)#Romanisation. The part where it is stated Macrons should be used in all cases outside of those specifically mentioned below. --Squilibob 06:07, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Bah, Edit conflict... yeah what Juhachi said. :) --Squilibob 06:08, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

I did a bit of searching and it seems that it's officially...neither :P It's "Yuichi" as written in English in the artbook. I don't have enough pages to view the full scan, but you can just barely make it out here. I'll go ahead and adject the page to reflect.--SeizureDog 07:56, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Wow, wouldn't have guessed that outcome. I already changed the Yuichi's on List of Kanon characters and List of Kanon episodes to reflect the change; glad we got that all taken care of.--(十八|talk) 10:52, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Actually, Yukito's name in Air wouldn't have a macron anyway-- it wasn't a "long" u, in the Japanese romanization sense. Magus Melchior 06:29, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Here's a better pic so that there's no speculation: http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/3804/1163769470707uv1ah2.jpg --(十八) 02:33, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

The kanji right next to the romanization though (祐一) says yuuichi since the reading for 祐 is yuu, not yu (the second character of course being ichi)...the romanization in the artbook isn't an accurate depiction of the pronunciation. Pifactor 04:03, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

You should take a look at the article Squilibob linked above. "Honor the current spelling used officially by that party..." I realize it's talking about companies, products, and organizations, but I think the same principle applies here-- if Yuichi was picked (or it's the only one available), we should use that. Magus Melchior 05:15, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

You're fogetting that there is not one set way of romanizing Japanese. The general Wiki standard is to use the Hepburn unless an alternate style is in use by an official source.--SeizureDog 23:57, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Syntax aside, the u is still extended, but I see where you are coming from. Pifactor 00:54, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

And so are the 'o's in Tokyo, but the average English speaker doesn't care about that. In any case, the 'ū' is shown in the Japanese reading part of the nihongo template, so I think that should satisfy everyone.--SeizureDog 12:47, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Use of foreshadowing

I'm not sure if the visual novel was as major on this, but the amount of foreshadowing used in the anime is just staggering. Of course, even without playing the game, I can tell that it uses it quite a bit as well. Ayu's winged backpack is a perfect example. Kanon uses this literary device perhaps more than anything else I can think of, so I think it should probably be mentioned somewhere in the article. Of course, OR must be avoided, but I think this one is pretty obvious.--SeizureDog 12:13, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Is it? I can see it in the anime, but mainly centered around Ayu. The only one I can think of off the top of my head is in Shiori's first appearance when she's dropped all her groceries, the box cutter is visable; this was also in the game. This is the only one I can think of that deals with visuals (and I'm positive it was in the game). There might be more, but I'm not sure. What other examples have you thought of?--十八 12:50, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Oh joy, listy time! Let me see what I can think of:

• Pretty much any scene in the opening credits, but that doesn't count for much.
• Ayu's "This is a dream" speech that happens a bunch of times in the first episodes.
• Mai petting the dog with the scar in the first episode, which is also the dog that the taiyaki salesman scares in the second episode. The dog is later shown to be the dog that Mai chases away and then feeds.
• Ep1 - Nayuki: "That's the hospital..." Yuichi: "A place I don't want to go to too much."
• Shiori's first appearance where she just walks by in the background.
• Ep1 - Nayuki: "That's not true; the foxes on this hill are special."
• In addition to Ayu's backpack, there's also the angel doll.
• Piro being the cat that the taiyaki salesman scares.
• Makoto's "au" is used in a very animalistic way. There are many instances of Makoto acting like an animal.
• Yuichi telling Makoto not to fight on the same level as Piro (as an animal).
• Ayu's multiple references about her "school".
• Pretty much any time Mai tells Yuichi to talk care of another girl.
• Nayuki and strawberries and what that leads to.
• Yuichi getting bunny ears for Mai.(Kinda a red herring too. I thought Mai's arc was going to be like Makoto's. "OMG Mai's a bunny?")
• Makoto stares at a wedding dress in a shop window at some point, I forget where.
• The :3 expression Makoto often has.
• The animals Mai names (giraffe and gorilla) in the game of shiritori are the same animals Mai's mother mentions when she talks about the zoo.
• Akiko's reaction to being introduced to Ayu in episode 4. "Eh?...Oh no, I must be thinking too much."
• The doctor's reaction to seeing Ayu in episode 16 at ~4:50.
• Personally, I think the reason why Ayu is so small is because she stayed the same age ever since she...you know.
• Ep 20 - Akiko: "Only a tree was cut since."
• Nayuki: "Yuichi, does a snow bunny remind you of anything?" Ep. 21 ~14:00
• Short term foreshadowing, but when the teachers pull Nayuki and Yuichi out of class it's like "ooooh sheeeet D:"

Of course, it's harder to pick them out since I'm just scanning random episodes quickly, and some are more important than others, but you get the idea.--SeizureDog 13:52, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

But then all that is just from the anime then; couldn't we just say that KyoAni likes to foreshadow? If you really think it warrents inclusion, could it not be in the main article? I'm going to create a Kanon (anime) page after I've watched the original series in about 2 weeks. Anything pertaining to the anime can go in there at that time.--十八 14:16, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

The original series has some foreshadowing as well, although not nearly as much as the new series does. For instance, Yuichi pulls a red hairband out of his luggage in the very first episode, but doesn't remember putting it in there. Ayu also has an opening monologue in 10 of the 13 episodes (all except 10, 11, and 13).

P.S. Regarding creating a Kanon (anime) article, SeizureDog could just create it now and you could populate it with additional information later. --Powerlord 23:07, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Eh, I tried that with Shuffle! once and it got merged back in after a while. I might do it once I'm up to actually writing some content.--SeizureDog 08:10, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Links template...

Seeing how KyoAni is about to animate Clannad next, wouldn't it be a better idea to have separate link template for each visual novel's characters, story, etc and then one for Key's works? It seems a bit odd to have a link template containing all Kanon characters on an Air article. And with Clannad, it'll probably become more crowded. KojieroSaske 05:04, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Well at one point there was a Template:Kanon and a Template:Air, but it seemed pointless since both templates (at the time) were very low in links. Then the Kanon character articles were made, so I guess it would make sense now to split the Kanon works into its own template, but then if we did that, we'd have to go back to creating a different template for each series, and with the very low number of pages related to the other Key works, it seemed logical to put them all in one template since they are all related to Key/Visual Art's. I think if/when the Clannad character articles (and possibly the reamergence of the Air character articles) are made, then it should be split, but for right now, I don't think so.--十八 06:38, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

There's been a bunch of navbox grief going on with the main Video game Wikiproject recently, with some people pushing for all of these splits and stuff. It's really annoying. But yeah, I think that they should probably just be specific by series. The other games by Key can be accessed easily enough from the Key article.--SeizureDog 08:12, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

A bit off topic: Do we really need an article for every character? What's wrong with lists of characters? _dk 11:25, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I was wondering the same thing myself. I'm under the assumption that Kanon currently does not prescribe to a character list because it has a much larger storyline? Air's characters had small enough stories to possibly warrant a list, but with Kanon it seems a bit overwhelming to include all of the characters in one huge list. There's also the fact that Kanon manages to incorporate many characters at once in a single girl's story, whereas Air was decidedly more secluded when it came to individual stories. KojieroSaske 16:48, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Basically, there are tons of character articles on Wikipedia, many of them pertaining to anime/manga characters, so it's not like there aren't many out there. Also, if the information is there, it can and should be included, such as individual story lines and how they are involved, or at least that's what I tried to do with the Kanon characters. I may try again with the Air characters once more information is avaiable.--十八 19:16, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Ayu Tsukimiya and Nayuki Minase, okay...but Kuze? The poor lad doesn't even have a face in the game. If other people have bad judgment it doesn't mean we should follow their example. (Random example: Hijiri) _dk 23:56, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

While I do see your point about Kuze (him being the minorest of minor characters in the Kanon), it wouldn't make sense to make character articles for the others and not be consistent enough for him. He did show up during Mai's arc and played a semi-important part besides.--十八 04:39, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, part of the problem is that visual novels don't really have much in the way of "minor" characters; they're pretty well focused. Kuze is the only true minor character we have an article on, while the rest are on important secondary characters. It's interesting because we actually have more main characters than secondary characters. --SeizureDog 08:12, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps we should just stick to having separate pages for the 5 girls and possibly Yuichi himself? The other characters could be covered on the pages of the girls whose stories they are relevant to. --Powerlord 08:37, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

(So many colons x_x) While that seems logical, in that way, Mai would have 3 other characters: Sayuri, Jun, and Kuze. A page with 4 characters on it kind of defeats the purpose of having separate character articles in the first place. Not to mention that Sayuri was given a back story, so her page is more developed than the rest of the supporting characters. Also, the Makoto page would then have three characters: Makoto, Piro, and Mishio...--十八 09:14, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

(unindent) Maybe a list of minor characters in Kanon? _dk 09:18, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

This was something I considered doing, but then that's six characters in one page. Wouldn't it seem kind of odd to have separate pages for the 6 main characters and a list for the minor ones?--十八 09:20, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

I think 6 is reasonable, don't know if others will agree though... _dk 09:27, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

How about this edit to the template? The idea just struck me after looking at earlier versions of the template.--十八 11:04, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Hmm...That makes sense. A link to the character category for Kanon. In case a character list is ever compiled, it could just be re-routed. So simple, I should have thought of it. XD

Hate to do this, but...

Does anybody else think the minor characters should be merged with their main character? Especially considering that each of the girls save Ayu is strongly connected to one. That is, I propose that:

• Akiko Minase merge with Nayuki Minase
• Mishio Amano merge with Makoto Sawatari
• Sayuri Kurata and Kuze merge with Mai Kawasumi
• Kaori Misaka merge with either Shiori Misaka or Nayuki Minase
• Jun Kitagawa merge with either Nayuki Minase or, if Kaori is kept to avoid spoiling her connection to Shiori, Kaori Misaka

One problem here is that Jun doesn't really fit with anyone. I feel that Akiko, Kaori, Sayuri, and Jun are major enough to get their own articles. Sayuri has her own ending in the game, so she should have her own article at the very least. Moogy ^(talk) 19:08, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

I've been considering doing this for a few days now. The way I see it, it should go like this:

• Akiko into Nayuki
• Sayuri, Kuze, and Jun into Mai - Those three have major involvements in Mai's story
• Mishio into Makoto
• Kaori into Shiori - You can't really stop the spoiling if the girls have the same last name, and besides, they don't really make it a secret that they are sisters.

This makes the most sense just going off of story involvement, and if I believe if we're going to do this, we'd have to do it for all the minor characters. I'd still like to see what others think on this matter before it's implemented though.--十八 21:10, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't like it. If it's actually a problem, we should make a List of characters in Kanon article, with the main characters section being an expanded version of the section in the Kanon article (while still having seperate articles for them), and merging the content for the secondary characters together. One of the main reasons I don't like the idea of merging into other character's articles is that it would set a precedent that works even worse with other series. I tried to make it apply to Shuffle!, and realized that I would end up merging four characters into Nerine (Shuffle!) (which already contains information on Lycoris, her clone), while merging nothing into Primula (Shuffle!)--SeizureDog 04:32, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

That's actually not a bad idea. We could include the lead of the 6 main characters back into List of Kanon characters and then just merge all the minor characters back into that page. There's only one thing: If we do that, do we keep the infoboxes for the minor characters? I would rather not want to remove those...--十八 14:34, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Unless if just causes major spacing problems, I'm fine with keeping the infoboxes.--`SeizureDog 04:54, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

After some not-so-quick editing, here's what it would look like with the new system. Is this okay, or should we discuss it further?--十八 06:29, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Anime ending

So I just got around to seeing episode 24 tonight. Any idea if that all happens in the game as well? The happy ending aspect of it seems just kinda...forced. --SeizureDog 09:26, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

I looked over a walkthrough of the game after I saw the last episode, and it seems it actually does happen that way, at least as far as all the good ends go. Since it was an anime, they had to splice all the good ends into one, so while it seemed kind of overboard, that's just because they combined 5 good ends. The epilogue with Ayu out of the hopital happens too, though the manga version is different than the anime, so I'm not positive if Ayu has to use a wheelchair in the game or that KyoAni just put it there themselves. :/ --十八 14:29, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Kyo-Ani made up LARGE parts of the ending. Specifically, much of episode 23; Yuuichi never passes out in the snow or meets the "real" Makoto in any of the game paths. The final episode is similar to the end of Ayu's path, but obviously all of the other girls have no place in it in the game. Personally, I like Kyo-Ani's ending... it manages to tie things together pretty well, and I always prefer happy endings over depressing ones in series like this one. Moogy ^(talk) 16:33, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

KyoAni's "edits" to the canonical Kanon (no pun intended) storyline was mostly appropriate overall. The story, theme, and settings revolved mostly around reality with pinches of miracles sprinkled here and there. The edits with Nayuki's clock being changed to something other than Keropi and Shiori's running off on Yuuichi were a few edits that I personally don't like. Yuuichi's passing out and meeting the real Makoto was also a bit odd, to me at least. I don't see it as a good nor as a bad thing considering the size of Makoto's fanbase. Real-Makoto's introduction was probably to reinforce the idea that fox-Makoto's miracle happened and also reinforced the Japanese myths surrounding fox spirits. I think KyoAni did an exemplary job with the ending. Simply skipping from Yuuichi's discovery of Ayu's comatose body to a recovered Ayu was unrealistic and completely disregards the character building effort that KyoAni had done. The fact that KyoAni included Yuuichi and friends visiting Ayu and doing the various muscle therapies all the way to the end where Ayu is helped into her wheelchair is simply brilliant. It not only builds on what we know of the characters but also builds on their dedication to each other. Basically, Makoto + Mai + Nayuki + Ayu's endings were held largely intact. Shiori's ending was completely different in that original-game-Shiori collapsed in Yuuichi's arms at the water fountain scene. The epilogues of all the Kanon girls were held the same way as the original game's epilogues. (Psychoneko 08:49, 13 April 2007 (UTC))

Tense

I've noticed that the article frequently switches between present and past tense. For example, from the setting and themes section:

The time of year the story occurred in was during winter, and since it often snowed periodically over the course of the entire story, the city was always presented covered in a layer of snow. The covering snow helps to develop the mysterious mood that the story flows through.

There are recurring themes that appear throughout the story.

It occurs as frequently as between paragraphs, as you can see. Now, I believe Wikipedia policy is to use present tense for fiction, but I'd just like to get some consensus on the matter before I go ahead and make sweeping edits (I'd also like to make the prose flow better, but that's another concern entirely). Moogy ^(talk) 16:59, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

There was a consensus reached before about when and where to use which tense. When talking about the plot 7 or more years before the story begins, use past tense. Anything after when the story begins can use present.--十八 20:39, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

In other words, you agree that some fixing up needs to be done, as the example quoted above is talking about the present in the story but is in past tense? (To be exact, it's from the Setting and themes section, third paragraph) --Powerlord 20:57, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

split proposal

This article jumps around from the novel to the game then back again, they should be separate articles. Chris 00:53, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Er, not really. Mind describing one of these "jumps?" I don't think the article needs to be split at all. Moogy ^(talk) 14:05, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

This article isn't long enough to be split into anything, and the only viable split would come from the Adaptations section, and that does not need to be split off as it's not too long and there's not really enough information on the adaptations to warrent a split right now.--十八 15:57, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Whoever wrote much of this assumed the animes were closer to the game and they really aren't. In both the guy has returned to a Hokkaido town where he vacationed 7 years earlier. He remembers nothing before leaving the town. Throughout the both series he meets people he knew from before and has to regain the missing memories of them. In the original Ayu (the cute short girl with the winged backpack) is revealed at the end to be the reason for his amnesia. She was a playmate he was very close to and is the reason for his amnesia. Though still the size of a child he falls in love with her only to learn the reason he lost his memory is he saw his playmate die in an accident. Ayu's winged backpack symbolize her angelic status. As his memory returns he embraces her but his arms meet and she is gone with only her pack left behind. Throughout the series he encounters love and loss and it is quite beautiful in how it is done. In the new one Ayu is still the same and does the vanish in the next to last episode. When the guy tells of his returned memory and Ayu's death he is told she didn't die and is just in a coma. He ends up waking her and an annoying happy end happens. Even the beautiful fox spirit arc gets undercut in the next to last episode. What a disappointment. Because of the disparity, I suggested the split. Chris 06:25, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

So, you want a split because you didn't like KyoAni's version of the ending...? Moogy ^(talk) 13:07, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Mind you, much of the article was written before KyoAni finished their adaptation. Thus, there will be much editing and revising in the future, but for now I don't believe that a split is required. Overall, most of the remake has been in line with what happened in the game, and the differences here and there can be listed if needed. At least that's how I see it. KojieroSaske 18:49, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. (Psychoneko 08:50, 13 April 2007 (UTC))

Removal of large inaccurate section

I have removed the following inaccurate section from the end of "Gameplay":

One of the goals of the original version's gameplay was for the player to enable viewing of several H scenes depicting Yuichi and one of the five heroines having sexual intercourse. However, these scenes made up only ten percent of the game. Key's intent was for the player to focus on the story and characters themselves, as opposed to ultimately finishing each of the separate storylines in order to view the sex scenes.

Console ports

For the Dreamcast and PlayStation 2 console ports of Kanon new material was added to make up for the removal of the H-scenes. A new heroine with her own story, named Rumi Nanase, was included.[7] Rumi appeared in the background of some scenes at school in the original game, but she did not interact with anyone. Rumi was taken from the visual novel One: Kagayaku Kisetsu e which was made by the same team that made Kanon, though this was while working with Tactics. Rumi is in the same class as Yuichi, which is how they meet.

The sex scenes are 50-75% of the way through the game, not at the end, so it would be misleading and presumptuous to highlight them as a "goal." Certainly it might provide motivation to many players, but that is implicit in the already-stated fact that the game includes adult content. Also, they make up much less than ten percent of the game, although they make up about ten percent of the CGs. The fact that there are sex scenes, moreover, is quite unrelated to the gameplay. There is one sex scene with each of the main heroines and a fantasy scene between Mai and Sayuri, in case someone wants to find someplace else to put this info.

Rumi isn't in any of the versions. That was a joke. See this page (Japanese): http://tatuya.niu.ne.jp/one-box/1.html Page-down about twice to where it says in red "honki ni shinaide kudasai."

Please be careful that your information is supported by reliable sources. If your information is from an unknown poster in a public forum, please at least say so. I have elsewhere seen someone cite a 2ch post as evidence despite clearly not having the Japanese ability to understand its meaning. Please avoid promoting rumors as fact. The Talk page might be a better place to start if in doubt.

I also changed "clean" to "all-ages" in the beginning because "clean" is judgmental. Skyworm 21:35, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for removing the inaccurate content. I went ahead and added in the correct information that you provided; is it all right now?--十八 22:16, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

I have fixed it. It's now in its own section at the bottom, since it really has nothing to do with "Gameplay."

"These scenes make up less than ten percent of the entire game"--that's an understatement. I think numbering the scenes makes it adequately clear.

"though they make up ten percent of the available CGs"--I'm not sure why this is important. There are a lot of random statistics I could put on this page, but I'd need a reason.

"The fact that there are sex scenes is unrelated to the gameplay and was included as a motivation to play the game for the original audience."--It's not really like that. The sex scenes are a part of the story like any other. Some of them do feel a little forced, but Makoto's, especially, is extremely impressive just as drama (subjective opinion).

"between Mai and Sayuri"--albeit minor, this seems an unnecessary spoiler.

Thank you for your hard work on this and related pages. Skyworm 07:27, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

I do not agree that the sex is unrelated to the gameplay. People bought these games to view these scenes, so they are an integral part of playing the versions that contained these scenes. There's no reason to split it into a different section.--十八 08:33, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Plot

Somethings wrong with an article about a visual novel if the Plot section is down 3/4th's of the page from the top. Isn't this the most important subject? (considering game+manga+anime) I don't know enough about this series or Wikipedia's standard on visual novels to edit the page myself. --70.142.38.123 10:56, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

This style of formatting a video game was patterned off of the featured article FFVII, though as far as a standard for visual novel articles go, I don't think there is one; there are a multitude of GA visual novel articles though which can be used as examples, this one included.--十八 11:13, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

I think the article follows a nice, chronological sequence of "how it came to be", "what it is", "what its legacy is" that makes sense. --SeizureDog 05:46, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Original game cover

I changed the original game cover image to the limited edition version featuring only Ayu since that was the real original game cover.--十八 04:05, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Good article reappraisal

As part of WikiProject Good Articles GA sweeps, I am re-reviewing old GAs to see if they still meet criteria. This article is very good overall, but I see one critical issue, in that things like gameplay and a vast majority of the content is cited just to the game. That kind of use of a primary source is just wrong, and supporting citations for pretty much everything save the plot should be introduced or adapted. --Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 01:43, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

It's by no means a "vast majority". The only places that use the primary cite of the game itself are the gameplay, setting and themes, and character sections (and then once in development). The reason this is so is because citing information on the game's gameplay has proven difficult, and besides, it's not like using the game as a cite hasn't been used in FA articles (which uses some of the game's direct quotes). Outside of the game, there's an official fan book I could cite, but beyond that there is little else to nothing. Not to mention that the majority of the content in the article is supported by other citations.--十八 04:04, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Okay, I attempted to replace all the things I cited with the game cite.--十八 19:26, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Assuming the book you mentioned is official, as a secondary source it would be infinitely better as a source than using primary materials. --Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 19:49, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Yes, it's official; see its page at Amazon. I have the book itself too.--十八 19:53, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

If you can cite as much as you can to that, then, it would be great. Official books are much better than the primary source because it reduces a lot of guesswork and potential for WP:OR issues. --Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 20:08, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

I believe I have cited as much as is needed to that book. Everything else is supported by other cites.--十八 21:23, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Ok, it looks much better. Thanks for the prompt replies. --Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 23:45, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

So, is that it, or are you going to go through with a formal GAR?--十八 01:43, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Proof that the reviewer passed this article's Good Article Reassessment here.--十八 22:40, 9 July 2009 (UTC)