Talk:Karaganda

Comment

The International Airport "Sary-Arka" in Karaganga, actually was build for an emergency landing in Soviet Era. First, made in USSR Shuttle "Buran". Must land there in case of any malfunctions or errors. But fortunately Buran never landed over there. After the collapse of the Soviet Empire, economical situations forced to close the project. Since then it was and is being used as a regular airport. With the slowly but surely growing economy of Kazakhstan it is being used for International flights, and the old airport had to shut down for public.

Val Pavlov.

Locative case

There is no locative case in Russian.--Dojarca (talk) 19:43, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

There is according to Locative case. It's sometimes called the "prepositional" case. in Russian it's the one you use with "в". Staecker (talk) 22:56, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Title move? (2007)

Hi Ash- I suggest that you discuss such major changes at Talk:Karaganda before you make those moves. These are big changes that shouldn't really be done without checking with other editors. Personally I agree with moving Qyzylorda, but not Karaganda. Karaganda is much more widely used than Karagandy (check google results), and wikipedia generally uses the most common English spelling (see Wikipedia:Naming conventions). Qyzyl- and Kyzyl- are about the same. Staecker 12:22, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Hi, Staecker. As a native kazakh speaker and Kazakhstan citizen, I can assure you that Karagandy (Қарағанды) is a direct transliteration to english. Karaganda (Караганда) is a transliteration of old name which was renamed in 1991. One letter matters. Look at the city seal at least. Its very important point, because of growing importance of Wikipedia itself. People take for granted whats written on Wikipedia. Thats why google has more results on Karaganda than Karagandy, I guess.

As example of new kazakh city names: (after 1991) Aktobe (Aktyubinsk), Oral (Uralsk), Almaty (Alma-Ata), Zhezkazgan (Dzhezkazgan) and Karagandy (Karaganda) Names in brackets are those used in Soviet Union period and were pronounced in russian way. Now, it's been 16 years since Independence and we still battle fot our own city names. Would you appreciate if I spell your name wrong? Thanks.User:Ashkazakh 13:48, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

I've been battling on WP for a while to get legitimate Kazakh names on our articles. You can read a long debate about Alma-Ata vs. Almaty at Talk:Almaty. Thankfully, Almaty won out. But I don't think that the case of Karaganda is really the same- I believe (please correct me if I'm wrong) that its name in Kazakh was always Қарағанды, and its name in Russian was always Караганда. The name of the city hasn't changed, they've just started writing it more often in Kazakh and less often in Russian. (If the name of the city has really changed, then what is the new name in Russian?) What we're concerned with is what the name in English is.

In English we seem to use a mixture between transliterations from Kazakh and Russian. The word "Kazakh" would more directly be "Qazaq" as a transliteration- we write the first "Қ" as "k" and the second like "kh" even though in Kazakh they're the same. Instead we commonly use a transliteration from Russian. So the most "direct transliteration" isn't always the best. Besides, wouldn't the most direct be "Qaraghandy" anyway? I'd much prefer that to "Karagandy", unless you can find some good sources for that particular spelling. For instance, what does the government of Kazakhstan write it as in official English documents? That would lend some great support to one spelling or another.

Without any extra support, I think we need to go with the most commonly used version, which as far as I can tell is the current title. Staecker 23:35, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Several central Asian cities in particular from Kazakhstan are better known by their Russian names, yet all their wiki article titles have been changed to Kazakh names, then why is this one still holding onto the Russian one? kindly change to Karagandy. 116.71.20.163 (talk) 10:13, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Requested move 2008

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was no move. JPG-GR (talk) 19:08, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

• Support. I suggest to move the article to Karagandy, which is correct transliteration from native kazakh language.Ashkazakh (talk) 15:18, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
• Support The article must be renamed. BernardTom (talk) 21:12, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose per Staecker above. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:50, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

The Kazakh form Қарағанды looks more as if an accurate Roman-alphabet transcription would be Qaraghandy or Qarağandy. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 21:28, 21 May 2008 (UTC) Go with either Qaraghandy, transliterated from Kazakh, or stay with the traditonal English spelling via Russian, Karaganda. Karagandy" is not a transliteration of Kazakh or Russian and should not be used unless supported with extra-WP citations. — AjaxSmack 01:55, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

• Support . Qaraghandy could not be accepted because most general kazakh transliteration is:
  Қ is transliterated as K, not Q. (See Kazakhstan, Kyzylorda, Aktobe, Aktau, Kostanai, Akmola Province).

And Ғ is transliterated as G, not Gh. (See Mangystau Province, Talgar, Taldykorgan, Zhezkazgan)). Ashkazakh (talk) 06:34, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

• Note. I will be moving the article to Karagandy in 3 days, if there are no other arguments.Ashkazakh (talk) 23:02, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 2012

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was no consensus to move. Additionally, sources that use any other variant (ie foreign language sources or those that use Qaraghandy) are not evidence supporting a move to Karagandy.Cúchullain ^t/c 19:25, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

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Karaganda → Karagandy – I suggest to move the article to Karagandy, which is correct transliteration from native Kazakh language. It has been long discussion and now is the time to move the page. Thanks, User:Ashkazakh (User talk:Ashkazakh) 05:30, 10 July 2012 (UTC) - Relisted Armbrust, B.Ed. ^{WrestleMania XXVIII} _{The Undertaker 20–0} 06:18, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

• But the sources still all use "Karaganda". —  AjaxSmack  02:42, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

  What do you mean by sources? Kazakh transliteration of Қарағанды is Karagandy. Karaganda is Russian transliteration. English name should be direct transliteration of the original Kazakh language. That's it. I am native Kazakh speaker, and I know better than any foreigner how it should be written. Ask any Kazakh speaker (not a Kazakhstani Russians), they will tell how it should be written properly. The same was with Chimkent (Shymkent), Taldy-Kurgan (Taldykorgan), Kokshetav (Kokshetau), Ust-Kamenogorsk (Oskemen). During soviet period, all out city names were called in Russian manner. Now as Independent country, we claim our city names back. And one of the biggest one still needing to be converted back is Karagandy. User:Ashkazakh (User talk:Ashkazakh) 19:12, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

  Sources are the items in the References section. —  AjaxSmack  20:59, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

• Where is the "long discussion"? It was discussed a little bit above on this talk page 5 years ago. Has anything changed? Is there a shifting in the common spelling to use the "y"? As far as I can see the situation for better or worse remains as it was back then. Staecker (talk) 23:54, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

• AjaxSmack, Staecker, I have added several sources in external links to show usage of "y". Please have a look. Also one bad link found in references. User:Ashkazakh (User talk:Ashkazakh) 05:40, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

  Some of those are good- I think it would be better to just list them here if all you're doing is showing usage of "y". There's really no need to have 4 weather reports. "skyscrapercity" is totally useless as an EL since it's not in english. The airport is a good thing to see- I didn't know they used the "y". The US embassy is a good idea- use their search box and you'll see 6 pages using "Karagandy" and 42 using "Karaganda". I really don't see any shift in general usage... Staecker (talk) 13:37, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

  Yes, "skyscrapercity" is in Russian and even they use latin transliteration "y". It is hard to see much shift in general usage, because people rely on Wikipedia where "a" is used. Unfortunately these people go on writing articles with wrong name. However, shift of using "y" will be more obvious. See also wiki suggestion Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names). Always look at search results, don't just count them. It is also related to any search engines. Another biggest argument - Britannica & Columbia Encyclopedias use Qaraghandy (direct Kazakh transliteration), of course it is not exactly Karagandy, however no "a" for sure. User:Ashkazakh (User talk:Ashkazakh) 07:00, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

• I totally agree with User:Ashkazakh. Many cities in Kazakhstan got their right/native spelling after gaining independence in 1991 and among them is Karagandy. Although some people might get used to former city names like Karaganda, Wikipedia as an encyclopedia should stay dynamic and refer to the legitimate and current spelling (Karagandy). Please also note that awareness of the necessity to rename some other cities in Kazakhstan growing day by day. Few years ago former officially Semipalatinsk was renamed to Semey, also in English! It is sometimes a matter of few letters. Therefore please be so kind to accept a natural and rationally suggestion to to shift Karaganda to Karagandy. Qarakesek (talk) 20:33, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

  This discussion has nothing to do with Soviet-imposed place names and spellings vs native names and spellings. Karaganda wasn't renamed after independence- the name of the city today is exactly the same as its name during the USSR. What's being discussed is the English transliteration of the name, which has traditionally been Karaganda. If you think "Karagandy" is more common or somehow officially favored, you need to demonstrate it. Staecker (talk) 22:14, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

  You are right. The city wasn't renamed, but the transcription was modified. It is a fact that the least letter was changed(a->y at the end). This was a decision of Karagandy city parlament on 22.11.2000. Qarakesek (talk) 08:32, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

  Do you have a reference for that? This kind of thing would absolutely convince me. Staecker (talk) 12:03, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

• Please also refer to how other former Soviet countries got their city names from Russian into their national language after USSR collapse 1991:
  Ukraine: Lviv (not Lvov), Kharkiv (not Kharkov), Luhansk (not Lugansk), Ternopil (not Ternopol), Chernihiv (not Chernogov).
  Latvia: Liepāja (not Liepaya), Jelgava (not Yelgava or Elgava).
  Uzbekistan Guliston (not Gulistan), Xorazm Province (not Khorezm Province)
  These were just few examples. Further can be expanded to hundreds. Let's see our situation in Kazakhstan: Shymkent (not Chimkent), Taldykorgan (not Taldy-Kurgan), Almaty (not Alma-Ata), Oskemen (not Ust-Kamenogorsk), Semey (not Semipalatinsk), Aktobe (not Aktyubinsk), Oral (not Uralsk), Shu (not Chu), Petropavl (not Petropavlovsk). It means only one city is not consistent with the rest, which is KARAGANDY. Please respect our right to have own names first. (User talk:Ashkazakh) 11:10, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

  You are still talking about cities which changed their names. We rightfully use the new names of all these cities. (I've even fought at Talk:Almaty against people who somehow still want to call it Alma-Ata.) Karaganda never changed its name. Staecker (talk) 12:03, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

  Unfortunately I could not find a reference in English on changing the city transcription by the city parlament. This is due to the fact that in 2000 Internet was not widely spread in Kazakhstan. But if you could understand Russian or put the text into translator, you can read a newspaper article from 21.12.2000 where clearly stated that the city name transcription was changed. Please note "Караганды" in the original text stands for Karagandy, whereas the google translator still translates the word per default as Karaganda. Qarakesek (talk) 06:50, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

  I don't read Russian but I tried- the change seems to be the official spelling when writing in Russian. Am I right? We are talking about the English transliteration, which does not seem to have been officially discussed at all. If there is no official move to use a particular English spelling, then we should use the one which is used most often in English, which is clearly with the "a". Staecker (talk) 12:06, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

  Your argument is not reasonable. There will be no official discussion about English translation, because Kazakhstan has only two languages: Kazakh as state and Russian as official. RoK does not discuss, regulate, or amend anything related to English language. Our other city names are transliterated from Kazakh normally here on Wikipedia, except for Karaganda. Karaganda is inconsistent. Staecker, thank you for helping with Almaty (Alma-Ata). We are discussing here the same issue Karagandy (Karaganda). I hope you can understand(User talk:Ashkazakh) 15:15, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

• Keep at Karaganda. Wikipedia's naming convention is to use the name that is most commonly used in English. I understand that the official name of the city in Kazakh is "Қарағанды" and that its correct Romanization is "Karagandy", but it is completely irrelevant for this discussion. What is relevant is that in English the city is still commonly known as "Karaganda" – which, for historical reasons, happens to be the Romanization of the Russian name. I know this may hurt the patriotic feelings of Kazakh-speaking Kazakhs, but even the parliament of Kazakhstan cannot decree a change in the English language. Compare Kiev, which is similarly still commonly known in English by its Russian name rather than the Ukrainian "Kyyiv". — Kpalion^(talk) 15:47, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

  Actually the parliament of Kazahstan could decree a change in the English language. But they haven't. Staecker (talk) 16:07, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

  Kiev is not relevant case. Besides that Kiev is way more popular in English speaking world, compared to Karagandy. That is why it is hard to change from Kiev to Kyyiv. Karagandy is regional city, and should be compared to regional cities. Please, see examples of Ukrainian cities above. Also, Parliament of Kazakhstan does not deal with anything related to English, simply because Kazakhstan is not an English speaking country. (User:Ashkazakh) 06:01, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

• Support. Let's make things organized. Here all the points to support moving:

1. 'Karagandy' is correct transliteration from Kazakh language. And it is the last Kazakhstani city which name is inconsistent in naming with other Kazakhstani cities in Wikipedia.
2. Britannica & Columbia Encyclopedias use 'Qaraghandy' (direct Kazakh transliteration), closer to 'y' and not to 'a' for sure.
3. The region where the city is located is Karagandy Province.
4. The famous football club is called FC Shakhter Karagandy. Also at: uefa.com, shahter.kz, transfermarkt.co.uk
5. External links related to name 'Karagandy':

Airport: www.karagandy.aero, routesonline.com, rome2rio.com, airfreightasia.com, acukwik.com

Maps: Google Maps, Yahoo maps

Travel Guides & Info: www.world66.com, visitkazakhstan.kz, www.worldplaces.net , worldcities.us

Weather Forecasts: www.accuweather.com, forecast.co.uk, weather-forecast.com, gismeteo.com, mirbig.net, weather24.com, fallinggrain.com, foreca.com

Local time: timehall.com, thetimenow.com, horlogeparlante.com, web-calendar.org

Skycraper city: [http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?s=0c759dcaf4d2ce313f345f7a69371c48&t=501719 www.skyscrapercity.com]

(User talk:Ashkazakh) 07:43, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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Requested move 13 April 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved – then reverted. See new RM below for details. See enough support in this debate to rename the article as proposed. Have a Great Day and Happy Publishing! (closed by page mover)  Paine Ellsworth  ^put'r there  01:38, 1 May 2018 (UTC)

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Karaganda → Qaraghandy – On the world maps, it is always spelled as "Qaraghandy". The article currently has incorrect name of the city. Shadowzpaev (talk) 14:31, 13 April 2018 (UTC)--Relisting. Dekimasuよ! 06:24, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

This is a contested technical request (permalink). –Ammarpad (talk) 17:04, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

• This article has been moved and reverted within the last few hours. Therefore it is not uncontroversial. –Ammarpad (talk) 17:16, 13 April 2018 (UTC)
• This city is in Kazakhstan as well where their language is Kazakh. So the city should be transliterated from Kazakh. That's like making article about Istanbul and naming it "Constantinople" instead. Or taking the country of France and naming it "Gaul" instead. While I admit, I do agree that the article should state how the city is also known as "Karaganda", but the title should rename in Kazakh version. In fact, this whole issue was debated on this talk page back in 2012! And it was chosen to make it into Kazakh name, but the problem I noticed is that they wrote the wrong name from transliteration. It supposed to be "Q" as to from the Cyrillic "Қ" and "gh" from Cyrillic "ғ" --Shadowzpaev (talk) 19:11, 13 April 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose for the moment. Our policy is not to follow the local names but to use the most common English name. The two move request above suggest that the most common English name for this city is Karaganda. It will probably change at some point, but for now we need a proof that the mainstream English-language (and not Kazakh-language) media use Qaraghandy and not Karaganda (or that the usage is so insignificant that the city does not have its own English name, and then we need to take the Kazakh name). Until this proof has been demonstrated, I oppose the move.--Ymblanter (talk) 00:10, 14 April 2018 (UTC)
• Support The city does not have its own English name. Sometimes I see many news articles even spell "Karagandy" which shows the disorganization. Many people look at Wikipedia city names and assume that's how the final verdict is. Even Google Maps uses Wikipedia, when you search city name it would the Wikipedia description. "Karaganda" is an old Soviet name for the city when Russian language was more dominant in Kazakhstan. Many people will continue to mistake the city's real name because the Wikipedia states it which plays dominant role since every time you'd look up city name in search engines, Wikipedia will always be top result. It's time I believe to fix the misconception from the article that makes everyone confused with real term by renaming to rightfully native name. Igor1383 (talk) 03:53, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
• Comment I had always opposed moves like this because it seems Karaganda is the most frequently used name in English, and there was no reason to prefer the other alternatives because they are just different transliterations. But now that the government of Kazakhstan has decided to switch alphabets, we will now have an unambiguous "official" name of the city in the latin alphabet. I think it might make sense to use that spelling, whatever it is. Has the official name of the city in the latin alphabet been decided yet? I know there have been a few transliteration systems officially proposed in the past few months- have they settled on one yet? Staecker (talk) 20:53, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

  Yes, the new official Kazakh name is Qaraghandy as far as I understand.--Ymblanter (talk) 00:16, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

  No. That would be Qaraǵandy. —  AjaxSmack  23:34, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

  Then we should not move the article, if we do not even know for sure what the target is.--Ymblanter (talk) 00:27, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

  How many Roman-alphabet users in a thousand could type g-acute? Replacing it by gh is understandable. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 21:25, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

• Support move there really isn't much English usage of either name so English usage is a bit of a non-factor. The name should be consistent with that which appears on maps, which seems to be increasingly favoring the official Kazakh name.--Calthinus (talk) 04:03, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
  • That would be Қарағанды. —  AjaxSmack  01:26, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 7 June 2018

Qaraghandy → Karaganda – Since the previous move was filed and supported by two sockpuppets, per this SPI, this disruption must be moved back. There were no good arguments why the page must be moved.--Ymblanter (talk) 19:30, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

• Did you ask User:Paine Ellsworth about revising the close? Dekimasuよ! 20:16, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

  I had some pretty bad experiences with the closures of this user in the past.--Ymblanter (talk) 20:18, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

• @Paine Ellsworth:, as the relister above, I would have closed the request as no consensus before relisting if not for the support of the sock. Given that the proposal was also initiated by a sock, I wonder if you'd consider revising the close and moving this back to the old stable title. Dekimasuよ! 20:35, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
• Challange previous closure is what I would do, if RMs had an established process for doing such, which I don't see. Failing that... Batternut (talk) 10:45, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

Strong support, as actually Karaganda vastly outnumbers Qaraghandy in map references (eg book-search for "Karaganda intitle:atlas" and "Qaraghandy intitle:atlas"). Batternut (talk) 10:45, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Post RM note

To editors Ymblanter, Dekimasu and Batternut: The previous page move has been reverted, as well as the category rename. Thank you for catching this and for prompting the necessary reversal.  Painius  ^put'r there  15:53, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

Thanks a lot Paine Ellsworth--Ymblanter (talk) 15:56, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

Pleasure! Paine