Talk:Karaite

Untitled

Karaite is a way of describing believers in the Abrahamic faiths who do not base their religious practice upon anything but what they consider divine revelation (which varies greatly depending upon which group is being referred to). Karaite is usually used to describes Karaite Jews or even the endangered Kypchak ethnic group of Karaims from theformer Eastern Block who can be regarded as a type of Christian/Muslim. This article should not redirect to an article exclusively about only the Jewish type of Karaite. Kaz 20:01, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

MOS:DAB

@Midas02: Please explain how the version of 11:16, 12 January 2016 by Dbachmann violates MOS:DAB.-- Toddy1 (talk) 08:11, 18 March 2016 (UTC)

Fixed

The solution for this disambiguation is that Karaims must be listed here and that the Karaims page itself must be a disambiguation page. The only objection to logic has been that some editors tried to pretend a puppet of Kaz was involved here but that concern has been dismissed[1]. The only other "solution" would be to have Karaims redirect here and list all the different meanings of Karaims here too, but since the word Karaites does not refer to all the meanings of Karaims then that would only increase the confusion that has plagued this topic for years apparently. @Dbachmann: there is no objection to restoring the simple solution by @Midas02: am I right? YuHuw (talk) 06:54, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

Would also like to welcome User:Ian.thomson. Would you like to be involved in discussion here? YuHuw (talk) 10:55, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

Per WP:BRD, you need to get consensus before restoring your version. Ian.thomson (talk) 11:00, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

And why do you think there is no consensus on the version by User:Midas02?— Preceding unsigned comment added by YuHuw (talk • contribs)

Why do you ignore the further edits by Неполканов that Midas02 did not revert, alter, or argue with? Ian.thomson (talk) 11:15, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

I have no evidence that those edits have been seen by all involved in building this consensus yet. Let's just wait for all the editors to chip in before any more reverts is that a fair suggestion? YuHuw (talk) 11:16, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

I am sad to see you ignored my polite request [2] I have already apologized three times [3], [4], [5], [6] for hurting your religious sensibilities. No offense was intended. Revenge is not the answer. Better if you could discuss logically and rationally. YuHuw (talk) 11:25, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

Once again, that you keep bringing up "offending my religious sensibilities" when I've made it pretty clear that's not the issue is a sign that you are not assuming good faith. Given how you regularly misdirect in conversations, it's getting hard for me to not wonder if you're using that to try to throw me off. It doesn't matter if you were complaining about missionaries, communists, freemasons, or lizard people, your rant about them was paranoid, your "evidence" was mostly bad-faith accusations, and altogether it is a sign that you probably need to stay away from this topic.

No objection has been provided for Неполканов's further edits, beyond you being butthurt over the sockpuppet investigation. Ian.thomson (talk) 11:54, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

Ian.thomson, I am very sorry I can't see anything of substance to respond to (source discussion, factual basis etc.) so unless you change your current tactic I am going to drop the discussion with you here. All the best. YuHuw (talk) 11:57, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

What part of "Why do you ignore the further edits by Неполканов that Midas02 did not revert, alter, or argue with?" did you not understand? Are you doing this intentionally or are you just incapable of answering a question?

I did bring up something, but as with Неполканов at Talk:Karaims, you refused to address things and just tried to change the subject. Ian.thomson (talk) 12:00, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

I have already answered that question above and there is no need to insult my intelligence. If you have nothing of substance to discuss I wish you to leave me alone now Ian. I am finding your aggressive attention unwelcome and somewhat Harassing. All the best. YuHuw (talk) 12:09, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

I've, once again, fixed this page per WP:MOSDAB standards. This is a disambiguation page listing everything which can be referred to as Karaite, it is not an article where content is to be added. Only two problems remaining:

• What is Karaim(s) supposed to be, is it supposed to be redirected here?
• What is supposed to happen to Russian Karaite(s)?

If no consensus is reached on these points, I'll take it out of the hands of people fighting turf wars, and refer it to the dab editors.--Midas02 (talk) 18:56, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

Thank you Midas02, Karaims is an ambiguous term which has been used in sources to refer to:

1) Crimean Karaites,

2) a type of Russian Sabbatarian with no ethnic relationship to Crimean Karaites at all whatsoever,

3) people who ahave no religious affiliation to type 1 nor type 2 but who are called Karaims by virtue of the fact that they speak a Karaim language.

The term Russian Karaites refers to a type of Russian Sabbatarian, but Неполканов claims it refers to Crimean Karaites as well. I have found no such evidence but as an act of good faith I surrendered that Russian Karaites should re-direct to Karaims [7] which was not objected to from 14th-18th of March until an aggressive campaign was launched trying to frame me as a puppet of another user (Kaz).

As far as I can tell, the only objections to a simple and logical disambiguation of these terms is that anyone who agrees must be a puppet of Kaz according to Toddy1 and now (as of last week) Ian.Thomson. Anyway that objection against me was thrown out by Someguy1221 so yesterday I restored the Karaite and Karaim disambiguations as before (with Russian Karaites as a redirect to Karaims as it had been from 14th to 18th of March) to get discussions rolling again on the talk pages.

Unfortunately an edit war began yesterday between Ian (including his friend Toddy1) and anyone who thought the March 14th disambiguation should remain which you can see here [8]. You can see that in the end I reverted an Anon IP to try and assure Ian of my good faith despite agreeing with the Anon and despite my conviction that Ian's edits were going backwards not forwards to any sort of solution and calm Ian down and get everyone on the talk pages. Unfortunately Ian blocked one of the editors as (yes, you guessed it) a puppet of Kaz (obviously of course anyone who opposes Toddy1 must be a puppet of Kaz as you can see from the number of people Toddy1 has accused of being puppets of Kaz over the years). I believe the matter should be taken over by a professional disambiguation team as per your suggestion.

I would only add, just to point out that the Karaim language (Караимский) is a Tatar language with Hebrew influences (as per User:Yoshiah_ap [9], but the language of the Russian Karaites (Караиты) is a Tatar language "without even the slightest trace" of Hebrew influence (as per Grigorjev here). Неполканов says they are the same or not the same as the mood takes him. Meanwhile the Subbotniks say that the Karaim language is nothing but pure Hebrew (Mikhail Kizilov "The Sons of Scripture: The Karaites in Poland and Lithuania in the Twentieth Century" page 91) so there is some disambiguation on that term too. It is certainly the ambiguity of terms like Karaites Karaims and Karaim language and Karaite language which has caused some people less informed of the distinctions to find the differences unbelievable and therefore fight to lump them (despite all the contradictions) together rather than assist future readers in understanding the subtle but important distinctions. YuHuw (talk) 05:27, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

I have to explain to YuHuw again and again that Grigorjev intended to Karaim language of Crimean Karaites in Crimea (ethnolect of Crimean Tatar language).While Khazars were supposed to be adherents of Judaism he supposed that Crimean Karaites derived from Khazars.while he was not familiar with multiply hebraisms in Karaim Language he wrote what he wrote. There is no any relation to Grigorjev's work and Subbotniks,appearing at least 400 years after Khazars disapearence and spoking Russian only like any other Russian peasant Неполканов (talk) 20:31, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

You have demonstrated repeatedly that you are less than amateur in this subject so unless you have a reliable source to back up your claim then I will ignore your comment. Also your edits have been rejected so it is time to discuss again as per WP:BRD although I expect you (or your meat-puppets) are likely to simply re-insert your views without discussion to build consensus as is your habit. YuHuw (talk) 04:28, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

So here a cite:

"Заметим только, что наречие татарского языка, которым говорят Русские Караиты, не заключает в себе ни малейшей примеси еврейских слов, оборотов или каких-либо других следов того языка, которым должны были говорить их предки, если эти предки точно были евреи. …обстоятельства эти невольно наводят на мысль: … по крайней мере, в наших глазах… караимы… потомки тех турок-хазар, которые, как известно, исповедовали закон Моисея и владели Крымом с VIII по XI » Опубликовано в: Григорьев В. В. Еврейские религиозные секты в России"

Translation of part you omitted:

"Karaites are descendants of those the Turkish Khazars, which is known to be practiced the law of Moses and held the Crimea from VIII to XI century". Could you kind to explain what is relation between Crimea and Volga residence of Subbotniks ? Неполканов (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 18:44, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

And now regrading the cite from Mikhail Kizilov "The Sons of Scripture: The Karaites in Poland and Lithuania in the Twentieth Century" page 91) above.Kizilov cites Crimean Karaite Author from "Karaimskaya Zhizn" magazine of Crimean Karaites that suggest to abandon Tatar Language*currently called Karaim langugage) and to retutn to Hebrew. Kizilovs work does not mention Subbotniks, You can see from the name of the article tha it is not about Russia (Subbotniks residence) Неполканов (talk) 19:15, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

1) Khazaria was a Volga Kingdom with its capital at Itil (moderrn day Astrakhan) and which extended down into the Caucasus. The only descendants of the Khazars are the modern day citizens of Russia who live in the same areas. This is known by anyone who has ever read a single article on Khazars.

2) Kizilov's quote is "It is of interest that at the end of the nineteenth century some Russian Karaites used the Russian term karaimskii iazyk… to designate Hebrew (and not the Turkic. Karaim language!)" Неполканов himself has demonstrated [10] [11] that the term Russian Karaites referred to a type of Judaizing Subbotnik (Russian Sabbatarian Christian sometimes Unitarian). When used in `juxtaposition against Crimean Karaites the meaning is even more clear that it refers not to Crimean Karaites but to the other group. Nevertheless, this is a red-herring. No attempt to discuss the difference between Russian Karaites and Crimean Karaites is made here. Only the fact that Karaim language sometimes also refers to Hebrew is presented with a very good source concerning which Неполканов again demonstrates lack of comprehension. I recommend focus on Russian wikipedia and not try to be involved in English wikipedia except in discussion pages.

Concerning the other soures I mentioned in my recent edits to the page i will present them again here -even though they have already been discussed at length and included in all previous versions of the page except those by Неполканов's Meat-puppet team.

the Turco-Mongol Keraites also called Karaits and Karaites in

a) Douglas Morton Dunlop, "The Karaits of East Asia", Bulletin of the School of Oriental and African Studies, University of London, 1944, 276–289.

b) "History of the voyages and discoveries made in the north translated from the German of Johann Reinhold Forster and elucidated by several new and original maps" p.141-142

c) "A General History And Collection of Voyages And Travels, Arranged In Systematic Order: Forming A Complete History of The Origin And Progress of Navigation, Discovery, And Commerce By Sea And Land, From The Earliest ages to the present time." Robert Kerr (writer), section VIII.2.

Careful examination of the older sources especially when reference is made to Караит/Karaits/Karaites in Russia or Eastern Europe is therefore required to avoid confusion. If the source says Karaims (Караимы) then no such examination is required except to distinguish whether Crimean Karaims or Russian Karaims are intended. YuHuw (talk) 05:15, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

Calling one more time everyone to return to discussion here to talk about the disambiguation and reach consensus. YuHuw (talk) 08:19, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

1) Please lok again what bolded above Astrahan is not Crimea(and not Itil also-'Itil is much souther) ,Volga is also not Crimea please look at the Russia map,Subotnks are Russian not Hebrew and not Tatar speakers,

2)Accoring the name of the book "The Sons of Scripture: The Karaites in Poland and Lithuania in the Twentieth Century" and aloso what written inisde Kizilov intended Crimena Karaites of Poland and Lithuania not Subbotniks of Russia, There is no Subbotniks in Poland and Lithuania

a) Douglas Morton Dunlop book is named "The Karaits' of East Asia" and not "The Karaites of East Asia"Неполканов (talk) 19:52, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

There are a few errors of assumption on your behalf which are causing you to misunderstand Grigorjev. But I will respond to your list first. Incorporated into these answers are answers to the comment you posted on User:Midas02's talk page here[12].

1) I see you think that Itil is in Crimea which is why you feel it necessary to state that Astrakhan is not in Crimea (as anyone interested in Russian history knows very well). Your mistake comes from the fact that you clearly did not not realize that Itil (also spelled Atil -the capital of Khazaria) was not in Crimea. I am very pleased to have the opportunity to educate you a little bit on the geography of Khazaria. Itil exactly as I previously said is in roughly the same proximity as modern day Astrakhan as everyone can see by comparing this map [13] with any modern dasy map of Southern Russia. I do recommend that you try to do that in order to avoid such funny mistakes again in future.

2) You clearly have not read the chapter of Kizilov's book from which I quoted. The context is that the Russian Karaites are spoken of in the Russian Army posted in the Halych region. They are juxtaposed against the Crimean Karaites. Both Kizilov and Grigorjev understood very well (as you pointed out in both your comments [14] and [15] and many others besides) that the term Russian Karaites is used to mean Subbotniks whose origins were in the Volga region which formed the heartland of the original Khazar kingdom as you can see from the map [16] or any map of Khazaria. Both Grigoriev and Kizilov are contrasting the Subbotnik Karaites against the Crimeans since it is common knowledge that many of those Subbotniks later settled in New Russia and Crimea where they could have become confused with the original Crimean Karaites. Hence it is extremely important to contrast the two groups so as not to allow confusion. Kizilov explains very well that Crimean Karaites descend from Qara'im who migrated there from Byzantium *not* from Khazars as you are suggesting. Volga and Southern Russians on the other hand probably do. Hence it is necessary to frequently compare and contrast Russian Karaites with Crimeans who both have very different origins. You might find it interesting to know that there was a fall-out in Spring 2015 between the "Khazarian" Karaites and the Karaite Jews of Crimea. The "Khazarian" Karaites decided to remove all reference to Israel from their Liturgies. But that is another story for another time.

3) Douglas Morton Dunlop is one of the three references provided in version 702340154 which I referred to. You have failed to notice that his Karaits are called Karaites in older sources such as those specified by Johann Reinhold Forster and Robert Kerr (writer) just two very famous examples of the (who knows how many) older works which use that spelling. I wrote the references above and provided the link for you but you overlooked them in your reply so I will post again.

"History of the voyages and discoveries made in the north translated from the German of Johann Reinhold Forster and elucidated by several new and original maps" p.141-142

1)Nepolkanov thinks that Itil is in Crimea it is a classic example how Yhuw distorts everything. I wrote that Itil is at the South direction from Astrahan and he invented that the Crimea is at the South direction from Astrahan

2)The same regarding Kizilov he translates rusian word Karaim(Crimean Kaearaites) as Karaites . So he wrote about Crimean Karaites from Russia in Russian Army Russia and Halicia are different states,So these branches of Crimean Karaites differ one from another .Here is nothing about Subbotniks.

3)Johann Reinhold Forster is an ornithologist ,so his translation from German cannot be used RS for name for Keraites in English. But reference to this ornithologist supplies additional evidence that Yuhuw is Kaz's clone while the same argument appears on Kaz's site Неполканов (talk) 19:28, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

"A General History And Collection of Voyages And Travels, Arranged In Systematic Order: Forming A Complete History of The Origin And Progress of Navigation, Discovery, And Commerce By Sea And Land,

I hope this helps clear up your misunderstandings of the subject area. At the end of the day, your disappointing lack of comprehension of the sources or any else's fringe interpretations (all the crackpot theories presented by Ancientsteppe) does not remove the sources from their contexts. YuHuw (talk) 05:02, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

Dealing with yet another round from the revert warrior

User:Toddy1 Please could you explain why instead of following WP:BRD you simply re-inserted Nepolkanov's work rather than discuss it after it was removed? Also What is the meaning of your comment about articles and disambiguation in the edit summary here [17]? YuHuw (talk) 08:02, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

Disambiguation pages follow Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Disambiguation pages. If you cannot understand the difference between an article page and a disambiguation page, then compare an article page such as Crocodile with a disambiguation page such as Crocodile (disambiguation).

The edit I reverted had some characteristics of articles rather than that of disambiguation pages. Perhaps an example will make this clearer:

• Crocodiles are large aquatic reptiles that live throughout the tropics in Africa, Asia, the Americas and Australia.
• Crocodylidae, all of whose members are considered true crocodiles, is classified as a biological subfamily.
• A broader sense of the term crocodile, Crocodylidae that includes Tomistoma, is not used in this article.
• The term crocodile here applies only to the species within the subfamily of Crocodylinae.

-- Toddy1 (talk) 10:59, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

Requested move 2 January 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. (closed by non-admin page mover) Extraordinary Writ (talk) 01:33, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

---

Karaite → Karaim – I don't think "Karaite" is ambiguous. It refers to Karaite Judaism, nothing more, and should redirect there. The Crimean Karaites are just Karaite Jews. The Karaim language is rarely called Karaite. "Karaim" has a much better claim to being ambiguous. Srnec (talk) 22:07, 2 January 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. -- Aervanath (talk) 15:43, 12 January 2022 (UTC)— Relisting. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 07:31, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

• Support. Clear primary topic in terms of how the word is actually likely to be used. BD2412 T 06:58, 3 January 2022 (UTC)
• Question I don't understand. As I see it, the page Karaim is just a redirect page pointing to Karaite. This seems to be correct. Why should it be changed? Thank you, warshy ^(¥¥) 16:05, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

• @Warshy: I am arguing that "Karaim" is more ambiguous than "Karaite", so the dab page ought to be there and not here. The term "Karaite" ought to redirect to Karaite Judaism, since it really isn't ambiguous. "Karaim" is ambiguous because is is used, on its own, for the Crimean Karaite language. Srnec (talk) 19:19, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

• Explained in writing as you do above, it seems right. It is just when I look at the pages I get confused. From the looks of it, it looks to me, as it is now, that the "Karaim" page is what you call "the dab page." But never mind, what you say is correct, so just proceed with it. Thank you, warshy ^(¥¥) 21:01, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose redirecting Karaite to Karaite Judaism (and therefore there's no need for a move). The two topics are distinct; Karaite Judaism is a religious sect while Crimean Karaites are an ethnic group. And the Crimean Karaites are not "just Karaite Jews" anymore. Per Wikipedia: "During the Russian Civil War a significant number of Karaim emigrated to Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, Poland and Hungary and then France and Germany. Most of them converted to Christianity." —  AjaxSmack  01:20, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
  • @AjaxSmack: But did they remain Karaites? According to the infobox there are no Crimean Karaites in Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, France or Germany. The first line defines them as "adherents of Karaite Judaism". I am not an expert on this by any means, so you may be right. But I still think that "Karaite" is basically unambiguous. Srnec (talk) 02:02, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
    • They still exist in small numbers in the Sovietosphere, and as the same section of the article says, they are not all Jews. (Even Hitler let many of them off the hook). This shouldn't really matter though because one article deals with a religion and the other with an ethnic group (just as Wikipedia has separate articles on Judaism and Jews). And both of these are topics called "Karaite" (unmodified). —  AjaxSmack  02:56, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose per AjaxSmack. The two topics are separate, and I don't think there's a primary topic in terms of long-term significance.  — Amakuru (talk) 21:43, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Karaite Judaism was not always a small thing. From the article: "at one time the number of Jews affiliating with Karaism was as much as 40 percent of world Jewry". Srnec (talk) 22:26, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.