Talk:Karamanids

Comments

Founder

It is not true that the founder of the Karaman beylik was armenian. The founder of the Karaman beylik was an Turkmen bey (warlord). Therefore I have removed that part, to be sure I have checked a few books and found absolute no reference of armenian origins of the Karaman beylik.

I am sorry, but you are wrong. It is well documented in the Encyclopædia Britannica. If you don't have access to the book, in short, it references that Karamanoğlu Mehmed Bey was the son of an Armenian convert to Islam, who married one of the Seljuk Sultan's daughters. So technically that would make him half-Armenian, but people are usually identified by the father's identity, so I think that justifies him as an Armenian enough. Eiríkr Rauði 18:07, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

You are completely wrong, there is no evidence pointing to this in seljuk or other Turkish chronicles of its time. There is absolutely no evidence in any Turkish history book and no historian has ever claimed that. During the seljuk times the lingua franga of the seljuk bureaucracie was persian and arab, the common public spoke turkish but the elites spoke persian and arab. It was Karamanoğlu Mehmed Bey who after declaring independence from the seljuk empire that Turkish was the sole language of the nation. His exact words were "From now on Turkish wil be spoken in the medrese (schools), in the mosques and by the elites" in 1291. There is no credibility of the claim that he has armenian roots at all, Karamanoğlu Mehmed Bey was a fierce Turkish nationalist, it is because of him that Turkish language prevailed in Anatolia. Therefore I have removed the outrageous lie.

The karaman clan has its roots in central asia, they were one of the many Turkish (Turkmen) clans to enter anatolia after the battle of manzikert. There are many Turkish sources pointing to this. Most Turkish sources and historians have this to write about the Karamanogullari dynasty. "Karamanogullari dynasty was from Nure Sufi Bey who was the son of Ahmed Sâdeddin Bey, one of the beys of Kacar tribe among Oguz people. Nûre Sûfî Bey was married with the paternal aunt of Eretna Bey."

Nuri Sufi Bey's actual name is Nûre Sûfî bin Sâdeddin, meaning Nûre Sûfî the son of Sâdeddin. Nûre Sûfî bin Sâdeddin was a clan leader of this Turkmen (Turcoman) tribe who had left central asia their homeland fleeing the mongols. First they went to Iran and from there to Azerbaidjan and then they went to the seljuk empire were Sultan Alâeddin Keykubad (1220-1237) setled them in Ermenek vilâyet (province). After Nûre Sûfî's dead Kerimüddin Karaman his son became the clan leader, it was he Kerimüddin Karaman wo is attributed as the founder of the Karaman dynasty.

It clearly says that they were oguz Turks belonging to the larger Kacar clan, the kacars still exist to this day in Turkey and in some parts of Iran. Karamanoğlu Mehmed Bey was also not the founder of the karamanoglu dynasty.

If anybody wants information about it please mail me (dennis_73@hotmail.com) Im more than willing to provide evidence. I have read many Turkish and non Turkish historians none of them claimed this, I wonder where Encyclopædia Britannica got his information from is there a reference???? Orrin 73

Here is a reference I found about Karamanoglu dynasty. In time I will provide more! http://212.174.26.236/goksu/regionalhistory.html http://www.ozturkler.com/data_english/0003/0003_01_26.htm

Encyclopædia Britannica makes the mistake by probably referencing historians Hammer, Cenâbî, Hazerfan, Âlî, Karamânî, Hayrullah Efendi. A scientific research done by Historian Şehabettin Tekindağ in 1947 found out that Hammer, Cenâbî, Hazerfan, Âlî, Karamânî, Hayrullah Efendi made the mistake of misunderstanding Ebu'l-Fidâ. Where they came to the conlusion that the karamanids were armenians. Şehabettin Tekindağ and some other historians have disproven that fact. Here is a credible source from a Turkish university about the issue, altough the reference is written in Turkish hopefully it will be translated in English sometime in the future. http://www.cumhuriyet.edu.tr/akademik/fak_ilahiyat/der3/3arboyacioglu.htm

You guys were all right. Thanks for clearing it up. It was hust Armenian propaganda, because an Armenian first told me that he was Armenian and that it is referenced in the Encyclopaedia Britannica... I'll have to think before trusting propaganda-driven Armenians again, especially in matters which can easily provoke hostile Armenian Genocide discussions and Armenian vs. Turk wars. Mmm, I don't get why they have a grudge on the Turks. I mean, the people were and are not at fault, as they did not carry out the genocide nor did they co-operate. There is no reason to apologize. :/ Eiríkr Rauði 17:31, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

Re-added the flag of Karamans.193.140.194.103 09:47, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Did a bit of copy-editing. IMO, the article could use a few more dates to show when key events occurred. Mary Read 06:48, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, I will add more dates.--TuzsuzDeliBekir 20:31, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

The flag

Error, rebooting universe... Am I drunk, or did I just see a flag with the Star of David as the flag of the Karamans?? I hope that some one can bring concrete harder than a rock references for that one. I just looked at the Candaroglu article that has the same flag, I looked at the reasoning behind it, however, we still should have good sources for that one..Baristarim 15:35, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I think im drunk too or something wrong hehe , i've been searching for several days via google , this is the best results ([1]) , i think they dont even have a flag Ammar (^Talk - ^{Don't Talk}) 09:23, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

The star on the flag is not the Star of David, it is the Seal of Suleyman, an Islamic symbol that commonly used before. They are similar. You can see this star on the decorations of old Turkish mosques. Most important one that i remember is Gül Mosque, a former church that converted to mosque.

Another example is here, the war flag of Barbaros Hayreddin Paşa,

http://www.fahnenversand.de/fotw/misc/tr~barb.jpg

The flag was referenced to Catalan Atlas before. But i do not know the source. We can ask to creator of this image, User:Ingoman.

Actually, another symbol used by Karaman State is double-headed eagle. An academic work, "Karaman Oğulları Beyliği madeni paraları" (Coins of Karamans) by Cüneyt Ölçer is a good source for the symbols, but it is not available for online access.

Kaygtr 15:08, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Reference to the flag is here: [2] Kaygtr 09:36, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Is this that strange? I dont think so, because the majority of the turks who came to anatolia were from the khazar empire and strangely the khazar empire had jewish as a state religion. So it does not surprise me at all. Secondly, there are names like Cohen in jewish which mean Kahan, which refers to the Khazar empire and names like Bunjamin in turkish which are not used by arabs etc. It would be nice if azeri's, turks in turkey and the jews in europe and israel to be tested for their relationship. 77.248.185.43 (talk) 16:34, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

A bit late, I know. But Cohen doesn't come from Kahan. Cohen simply means "priest". There are Jews from Iraq, Morocco and Yemen with the surname Cohen. TFighterPilot 16:46, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

There is nothing strange about the Star of Suleyman to see in a Moslem monarch's flag. This is also something in Islamic art. You can even see that star at the enterence of Pertevniyal Valide Sultan Mosque in Istanbul. It is also very normal to see common symbols and rituals among the Moslems and Jews, because they are related religions. 88.255.15.178 (talk) 07:22, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Star of David or Seal of Solomon used by pre-Islamic and also by Islamic Turks. One of the most important users of "the hexagram" are Turks. If you want, I can give so many examples of Turkish (From Seljuks to the republic) (plus Turkic) history. The hexagram was not used by Kemal's Turkey. Also "hexagram" was used by so many other various communities (You know you thought it was used by only Christians or Pagans, for this reason my last word is: "except Christianity"). You can see it in Turkey's various cheshmes or mosques or tombs, please get out of Wikipedia. And don't come again. Such an ignorance. Sigh. KARA (talk) 14:12, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

Based on sources I have seen, I think the hexagram was used, but the source for the image is a medieval primary text. It is not clear whether it is Karamanid or something else. The flag also appears to have features in the given source that have not been copied into this image. Without a clearer source, it is an editor's interpretation of a medieval primary source. I am open to including an image if a clearer one can be found that is sourced to a secondary source, but until then I think the hexagram and its significance can be discussed in article text. Seraphim System ^(talk) 02:58, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

This article needs work

This article is very confusing to me. For example:

• "they assembled another army which defeated Mehmet Bey. After the war, he and some of his brothers were executed in 1277.", but Mehmet Bey appears again in the 15th century: "Timur gave control of Karamanid to Mehmet Bey, the oldest son of Aleaddin Ali Bey."
• 'Alladdin Keykubat I, the sultan of Seljuks from 1219 to 1237, had reached the border of the Byzantine Empire and ordered some from the house of Turkmen to keep the borders safe. No sooner had he done so than Cilicia was captured, and control of the city was given to the house of Karaman." What did he order from the house of Turkmen? Who captured Cilicia and gave it away??
• "During this time, the Ottoman family were fought against for being kings. " Don't quite understand.
• "During the Crusade on the Ottoman Empire, Karamanid İbrahim Bey marched toward Ankara and Kütahya, destroying both cities" What crusade is this??
• This article says that this state was established by Mehmet Bey, but his article says he was the "3rd ruler of the beylik of Karamanoğlu".

If the problem is related to English skills, I would be happy to help. MapMaster 23:19, 13 April 2007 (UTC) P.S. I added a map.

Karaman not armenian in origin

I provided proof in my previous posts, why was it changed?Orrin_73 —Preceding comment was added at 19:10, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

For Armenians, every single successful Turk has Armenian origins. They are really strange, if you'd be a known person in the future, they'd claim that you are also Armenian, heh. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 139.179.207.202 (talk) 15:24, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Karaman was a Turk. The chauvinism above is inappropriate. Aramgar (talk) 23:20, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

The Flag

This star was used by many Islamic emirates. It is not the Jewish symbol, Star of David, since it is called Seal of Suleiman (Süleyman Mührü). We can see the flags of Karamanoğlu, Candaroğlu and Dulkadir from The Catalan Atlas of 1375.

Turkish explanation for Turkish users who think that the flag symbolizes Judaism: Söz konusu bayrak sandığınız gibi İsrail bayrağı değildir. 1375 tarihli haritada pek çok beylik ve emirliğin bayrakları çizilmiştir. Söz konusu haritaya yukarıda ulaşabilirsiniz. Benzer şekilde Candaroğullarının bayrağı da kırmızı Süleyman Mührü içerir: . Bununla birlikte yukarıda görebildiğiniz üzere aynı yıldız Barbaros Hayrettin Paşa tarafından da kullanılmış olup, Osmanlı camilerinin içinde dahi görülmesiyle İslami bir simge olduğu sabittir. Yani bu yıldız yahudiliği değil, aksine müslümanlığı simgelemektedir. Bu yıldızın yahudi simgesi olması son 100-200 sene öncedir. Camilerin içine çizilen bir simge nasıl olur da yahudi simgesi olur? Selçuklu eserlerini, Osmanlı eserlerini inceleyiniz. Lütfen bayrağın Yahudi bayrağını olduğunu iddia edip ikide bir silmeyiniz. Ailenize sormanız bir şey ifade etmiyor, zira hiçbir yakınınız 1375 yılında yaşamadı ve Karaman ailesi Osmanlılar tarafından 1500'lü yıllarda dağıtılmıştır. Eskiye dair bir şey kalmaması doğaldır. Wikipedia kişisel iddialar üzerinden değil, kaynaklara dayanarak yürümektedir. Bu tartışma daha önce yapılmış ve sonlanmıştı, lütfen elinizde sağlam bir kaynak yoksa tartışmayı sürdürmeyiniz. Kaygtr (talk) 23:01, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Improve article

You can try to improve the article translating from catalan version (see the biography of each ruler). Catalan is very close to french language (and still more close to the occitan language).--83.33.222.102 (talk) 13:51, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Where is Mer ?

The article states that "Karaman expanded his territories by capturing castles in Ermenek, Mut, Ereğli, Gülnar, Mer, and Silifke." Now, five of these locations are well known. But where is Mer ? I followed the link which directed me to an disambiguation page. In that page there are only two locations named Mer, one in France and one in Australia. Obviously Mer is a misnomer. Can it be Mara ? In that case either the original name Mara, or the present name of the village Kırobası must be used. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 08:12, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Murat I and Murat II

It is claimed that Alâeddin Ali Bey married to Nefise Sultan, the daughter of the Ottoman sultan Murad II. I highly doubt it. Because according to Prof Yaşar Yücel and Ali Sevim, Murat II had married to Melek Hatun from Karamanoğlu house. Does this mean that both sultans were both groom and the father in law at the same time, just like a Mark Twain story ? Since Alaaddin was older than Murat II most probably Nefise was not Murat II's daughter. Can Nefise be Murat I's daughter ? Checking the history of the article I saw that in 2 Apr.2008 an ambigious editor had changed Murad I to Murat II . I'll repair it. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 11:57, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Vegaswikian (talk) 20:35, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

---

Karamanoğlu → Karamanids – per WP:COMMONNAME & WP:USEENGLISH

• "Beylik of Karaman" -Llc 24 (1923-2011 minimum 15)
• "Karamanoğlu" -Llc 2,110 (1923-2011 minimum 106), but this result includes Turkish books and irrelevant "Karamanoğlu". It is also one of the modern Turkish surnames. Yılmaz Karamanoğlu, Osman Korkmaz Karamanoğlu, Ali Fehmi Karamanoğlu etc.
• Anatolian Karamanoğlu -Llc 518 (1923-2011 minimum 136 includes Karamanoglu etc., except Karamanoglu etc. 14)
• "Karaman Principality" -Llc 44
• "Karamanid Principality" -Llc 7
• "Principality of Karaman" -Llc 141
• Karamanid -Llc 831 (1923-2011 minimum 197)
• Karamanids -Llc 1,360 (1923-2011 minimum 200)
• Qaramanids -Llc 304 (1923-2011 minimum 59)

Takabeg (talk) 11:21, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

I prefer Karamanid, as it is most common term used in literature. Kaygtr (talk) 22:14, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

As long as I understand, Karamanids is used as a noun, and Karamanid is used as a kind of adjective: Karamanid principality, Karamanid dynasty, Karamanid throne, Karamanid family, Karamanid ruler, Karamanid Bey, Karamanid Emir, Karamanid Mehmed Beg, Karamanid period, Karamanid stronghold of Mavga Kalesi etc.... Takabeg (talk) 04:00, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

You are right. Kaygtr (talk) 10:29, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

File:Karamanoglu Mehmet Bey.jpg Nominated for Deletion

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Salur or Afshar

According to the articles Salur tribe, Karamanids and Oghuz Turks Karamanids were a branch of Salur people (Üçok group of Turkmens). But there are also some sources which connect their origin to Afshar people (Bozok group of Turkmens).The online source [3] by Yahya Başkan and Türkiye tarihi Cilt I by Yücel and Sevim note this ambiguity. Perhaps the lede should be rewritten. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 08:51, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Faulty map

The second map on this article titled "Beylik of Karaman (orange) in 1300" (created by User:Gabagool) is the worst map I've ever come across so far. For example Ilkhanids and Seljuks are quite displaced and the Candarids are called Isfendiyarids much before Isfendiyar was born. I'll call the editor. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 13:31, 4 October 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

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Flag edit-warring

As was pointed in a 2018 talk above, and again by JPD in these edits, this proposed flag is pure WP:OR. So far, neither the file page on Commons or a single editor has provided evidence from reliable secondary sources to support the existence or identity of this flag, which is a non-negotiable basic requirement of content of Wikipedia. The repeated edit-warring (most recently by @78.191.44.102) does nothing to address this. If someone wants to propose a flag image, please explain yourself here with reference to reliable sources that explicitly support it. R Prazeres (talk) 04:22, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Same issues apply to this. Please note that the Book of Knowledge of All Kingdoms is (again) neither a reliable nor a secondary source and it contains material which modern scholars believe is fictionalized or embellished. Another reason for editors not to resort to WP:OR by interpreting primary sources on their own. R Prazeres (talk) 18:54, 13 August 2024 (UTC)