Talk:Kardam, Prince of Tarnovo

Title

Prince of Tarnovo and not prince of Turnovo, because Tarnovo it's a bulgarian city in the north central part of the country from where the title comes. And Turnovo it's a village in the municipality of Bosilovo in the Republic of Macedonia.--GaboPV (talk) 09:22, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

Merger proposal

I have redirected Prince Boris of Bulgaria to this page because it is a non-notable stub. I will place Boris' info on this page. Charles 14:18, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Why haven't you gone through the appropriate channels and added a merger tag as you know it's controversial. - dwc lr (talk) 14:53, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Merger tag or not, the only people who show up to dispute it are the same old faces who don't have an argument to stand on. Sorry to say. Charles 15:09, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

First I'd like to thank you for giving other wikipedians a say in the matter very gracious of you. I believe he is worthy of his own article same as other young Princes who are likely to become heads of their respective dynasties Prince Pierre of Orléans, Infante Afonso, Prince of Beira, Prince Constantine Alexios of Greece and Denmark. - dwc lr (talk) 15:30, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

I motion to the example of the Chatto children. While the difference is that they are not royal, arguably they are in essentially the same position as these princes. Non-notable in their own right, possibly holding notable positions or status but otherwise they are stubs and are at best contributing passages in the pages of their respective parents. I haven't got a single thing against exiled/deposed royal families or any royal family for that matter but I feel that Wikipedia needs to be pared down to what is the most educational outside of providing mere genealogical entries. I am an advocated of listing lines of succession and the like but if we haven't anything else other than dates and locations of birth and godparents, I suggest following the example at Lady Sarah Chatto#Marriage and issue and also listing the children in the succession boxes of their parents until a day comes where they are individually notable. Premature article creation for people who may possibly become notable should be discouraged. All of these children share attributes (princes, etc) that are usually pave a road to notability but that destination has not yet been reached. Charles 16:19, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

It's not like every single member of former reigning dynasties has an article. These princes are future heads of dynasties. Look at the Prince of Beira article: it started out like this but over time it has been expanded. It's the same with the other articles. Overtime they are expanded as other people have access to more information about them little as it may be at present. In general I agree with the Chatto example most people probably don't have a problem with that method. There used to be articles on every single person listed in the Bulgarian RF template the majority are now just redirects and no one is undoing those. Some of these young royals are future heads of former reigning dynasties I believe these individuals are notable but their siblings or cousins are not. A recent example of a birth to a member of the Bulgarian RF is Simeon Hassan Muñoz. His birth, baptism, godparents has been covered in the media. I don't see a problem with having an article for someone like Prince Boris or Infante Afonso I don't think their siblings (or cousins like Simeon Hassan Muñoz) necessarily warrant one but an heir apparent directly in line to becoming head of a House does imo. - dwc lr (talk) 22:38, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

One thing is for sure: if his father dies he becomes next in line and the new Crown Prince of Bulgaria, thus deserving from now on a new page. G.-M. Cupertino (talk) 14:07, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

There is no such thing as "Crown Prince of Bulgaria", except as a courtesy title.   Will Beback  talk  22:08, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

• I think this merger proposal makes sense. Notability is not inherited. He's just a 14-year-old boy.   Will Beback  talk  22:08, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

The title 'Prince of Turnovo' is now vacant.

The title 'Prince of Turnovo' is now vacant.

Someone needs to replace the word 'Incumbent' in the succession box with 'Vacant'. - (203.211.72.49 (talk) 23:39, 8 April 2015 (UTC)) No it nots it went to his first born son now heir (68.80.137.103 (talk) 20:34, 5 August 2015 (UTC))

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Requested move 30 December 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Commonly known as Kardam, Prince of Turnovo in English. This is not a biased title, it is the WP:COMMONNAME. (closed by non-admin page mover) Bradv 17:31, 7 January 2017 (UTC)

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Kardam, Prince of Turnovo → Kardam Saxe-Coburg-Gotha – This person was born after Bulgaria became a republic, his title is only in pretence. This is an example of royalist bias on Wikipedia, sometimes treating deposed royal families the same as ruling ones. PatGallacher (talk) 15:14, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

• Support. Seems consistent with his father who actually had a title during the monarchy and is still better known as Simeon Saxe-Coburg-Gotha. SnowFire (talk) 05:44, 31 December 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose - What matters is what is the common name for this individual in English-language works. Google shows 61 results for "Kardam Saxe-Coburg-Gotha" [1], as opposed to 7920 results for "Kardam prince of turnovo" [2]. That is overwhelming evidence that he is commonly known as "Kardam, Prince of Turnovo" and only very occasionally known as "Kardam Saxe-Coburg-Gotha". What his father is known as applies to the father, but not to the son. Noel S McFerran (talk) 03:59, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose, per Noel S McFerran's point, above, about Kardam being better known by royal title than a surname used by his father only after Kardam was already an adult. Also, while I've noticed that occasionally some nationals of a country formerly ruled by a dynasty object to its family members being described using traditional titles, Wikipedia's approach is super-national and keyed to English readers' expectations rather than being determined by a particular national practice or by current local political factions. Instead, our guideline acknowledges legal and official usage for reigning royalty, but specifically avoids using either the titles attributed by royalists to persons who've never actually reigned or the names attributed to them by anti-monarchists which they have never actually used. Rather, the guideline follows long-prevalent international practice by employing the most commonly used titles that literature and journalism ascribe to deposed dynasties, instead of Wikipedia "making up" an artificial policy to impose nomenclature on people that diverges from how they are commonly referred to in most English language sources. FactStraight (talk) 05:34, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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