Talk:Karim Khan Zand

Sources

He sounds fascinating. Can someone find some sources? I will if I find time. Doug Weller (talk) 07:06, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

There are a few sources listed here. --CreazySuit (talk) 07:28, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, I was going to ask you and Larno about this. Doug Weller (talk) 08:09, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

the text of that source is written as if he was a hero. It has also many gross mistakes e.g. Turkish instead of Turkic and plus the Lak do not live in Southern Iran but in Western Iran. It says that Alimardan Khan was killed. But it does not say by whom. Guess? yes by Karim Khan. It also does not say that he massacred Western Iran. Reading of historical sources gives another image of Karim Khan.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 02:36, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Hi Doug - the leading authority on Karim Khan Zand is Professor John Perry and his is the English language textbook on the subject 'Karim Khan Zand'. There are two versions of the book both by the same name. One is simple and less expensive than the other and in current publication. There are many Iranian sources too, which Zand Benevolent Fund are hoping to provide a scholarship to a suitable phd student to delve into further and elaborate on the English language histories of this remarkable man. Michael Khajeh-Noori —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.17.58.212 (talk) 11:25, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

WP:NPOV

Unfortunately, some users (including IP users) try to remove the information/thesis about his Lur origin. At present, I have to put {{NPOV}} to this article. Thank you. -- Takabeg (talk) 10:16, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

Xani95's version

I think the version of Xani95 is more reliable, since he cleaned the text, infobox and removed unrealted text. The person (Karim Khan Zand) is of Lak origin, but Lak people live in Luristan, therefore, (according to Vladimir Minorsky) often mistaken to be Lurs. According to some sources the Lak people speak a language grouped with Southeren Kurdish.

--Bokan995 (talk) 10:34, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

User:Bokan995 claimed (This article is much more cleaner, reliable and organized. Stop removing it!). But the who removed information was Xani95, 88.90.57.53 and User:Bokan995. -- Takabeg (talk) 10:36, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

The important is not whether he was Kurdish people or not. We must provide information neutrally with reliable sourses. -- Takabeg (talk) 10:38, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

Just to clarfiy, the version BOkan995 prefers was his own, as Xani95 is a confirmed sock puppet of Bokan995. Dougweller (talk) 12:22, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

As were 88.90.56.34 and Xano95. Dougweller (talk) 12:29, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Much more reliable calling him Kurdish

I belive the previous version is much more reliable, and better written. The article looks much more intresting. The person (Karim Khan Zand) is of Lak origin, but Lak people live in Luristan, therefore, (according to Vladimir Minorsky) often mistaken to be Lurs. According to some sources the Lak people speak a language grouped with Southeren Kurdish. I don't think it's wrong calling him a Kurdish ruler, since he was of Kurdish origin.

--Soran Xani (talk) 20:17, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

Although anyone can removed edits by block evading sock puppets, it might be ok to leave this one to show how often Bokan995 (talk · contribs) is attempting to evade his indefinite block and pretend to be a separate editor. Dougweller (talk) 05:24, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

Disruptive edits

Caprimanali has been removing information of Karim Khan and adding information with sources that mention something else. Explain yourself instead of attacking with your ridiculous accusations such as "why you persians hate everything has with kurds to do? You are sick and need help." --Mossadegh-e Mihan-dust (talk) 13:28, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Lak, not Lur

Just to let everyone know that it's beyond any doubt that he was Lak. You'll find sources that state he was Lur, but that's because Laks were commonly thought to be part of the Lurs, and because the tribe was from Northern Luristan. In fact, their self-identification varies, though their language is definitely closer to Kurdish. Concerning the Karim Khan, it was apparent that he considered himself distinct from both Lurs, as well as the neighbouring Ardalan Kurds.

On Laks: http://www.loor.ir/files/ketaw86/E-books/English/laki-article-typset.pdf Znertu (talk) 00:56, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

Supplementing my comment from many years back with the following source 'Les Kurdes Ardalan: Entre la Perse et l'Empire Ottoman', by Sheerin Ardalan, on the Zands' Kurdish background and Kurdish involvement in the era.

P. 64: "Pour tous les auteurs kurdes, les voyageurs européens de l'époque (tels que Niebuhr, Olivier, Ferrières de Sauveboeuf et Watson), les auteurs ottomans (tels que Cevdet Pasha) et certains auteurs persans (tels que Hedayati), les Zand sont une tribe kurde. Une certaine tradition plus tardive (Rostam al-Hokama, par exemple) les considère comme des Lor et est actuellement suivie, à tort, par les auteurs contemporains qui, malheureusement, ne consultent pas les sources kurdes."

P. 128: "l'Armée active de Karim Khan était formée de Kurdes, principalement Zand, Zangana, Kalhor, Vand, et Lor Feyli."

Znertu (talk) 13:54, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

I forgot one thing; his mother was from the Ardalan Kurds. Znertu (talk) 14:57, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

Looks like random obscure sources. Sorry but this looks like you're trying to push your own opinion, especially when looking at your other comments. --HistoryofIran (talk) 16:50, 28 March 2019 (UTC)

If multiple (near-)contemporaries of the man say that he was Kurdish could it not be that you're the one that's being biased? Znertu (talk) 23:29, 28 March 2019 (UTC)

What are those multiple (near-)contemporaries sources exactly? Those questionable sources you cherry picked? --HistoryofIran (talk) 13:08, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

expansion

this article is about 5 paragraphs long and brief to a whole new extreme, plz fix this

Requested move 25 March 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. As an uncontroversial technical request with no objections. (non-admin closure) TonyBallioni (talk) 20:05, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

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Karim Khan → Karim Khan Zand – Most sources (Cambridge History of Iran, Iranica etc) identify him as 'Karim Khan Zand' (Zand being the name of the tribe he belonged to), rather than simply Karim Khan. They always start to spell his full name (Karim Khan Zand) and then simply use 'Karim Khan' for the sake of simplicity, which is the same I intend to do with this article. HistoryofIran (talk) 12:32, 25 March 2017 (UTC) --Relisting. Anarchyte (work | talk) 10:47, 2 April 2017 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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Relations with the tribal clans of Iran Suggestion

Is this section empty due to an editor starting, but then not coming back to it, or one of the sites of the edit war that the talk page documents. Seeing as all rulers of Iran will have to deal with the tribal clans of Iran, is it worth having this as a seperate section even if once filled in or should anything notable found just be integrated into the main body in other people's eyes. Kind Regards, NotAnotherNameGuy (talk) 01:02, 11 March 2022 (UTC)