Talk:Kartikeya/GA1

GA Review

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Nominator: Magentic Manifestations (talk · contribs) 07:00, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Reviewer: Zanahary (talk · contribs) 03:09, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

I'm excited to be reviewing this! I'll be getting to it in the next week or two.

Rate	Attribute	Review Comment
1. Well-written:
	1a. the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct.
	1b. it complies with the Manual of Style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation.
2. Verifiable with no original research, as shown by a source spot-check:
	2a. it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline.
	2b. reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose).
	2c. it contains no original research.
	2d. it contains no copyright violations or plagiarism.
3. Broad in its coverage:
	3a. it addresses the main aspects of the topic.
	3b. it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style).
	4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each.
	5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.
6. Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio:
	6a. media are tagged with their copyright statuses, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content.
	6b. media are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions.
	7. Overall assessment.

Thanks for taking it up. Let me know the comments! Magentic Manifestations (talk) 03:27, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

Comments

Part-I

Hi @Magentic Manifestations, I have some copyediting annotations up to and including the "Vedic text and epics" subsection of the "Literature" section:
1. Kartikeya means "of the Krittikas"... In what language?
Addressed with appropriate source
2. aided by Vayu and Agni Aided how?
Refer #3
3. The first paragraph of the etymology and nomenclature section seems to have more detail than is necessary—for instance, does it matter that the sparks' development into boys was aided by Vayu and Agni? This is only meant to explain the etymology; the actual birth narrative is explained in detail later.
As it is explained in detail in the next section, tweaked to simplify the sentence
4. the asuras Śūrāpadma, Tārakāsura, and Simhamukha performed austerities to propitiate Shiva What are austerities?
Simplified the same
5. What are the various boons given by Shiva to the asuras in the Skanda Purana? How do they give the asuras powers? "boons" feels like a strange word choice.
Explained the boons and expanded the story line
6. Are the five additional heads manifested by Shiva on his body? If so, it should be said.
Added
7. ...and started a reign of tyranny in their respective realms. Was it a single reign of tyranny? Or three separate reigns? The singular article "a" is confusing.
Modified the sentence
8. Initially, the wind god Vayu carried the sparks, with the fire god Agni taking over later because of their unbearable heat. Agni deposited the sparks in the Ganga river. Who carried the sparks to the river? I don't see where Agni comes in. Additionally, there should be consistency with the use of "Ganges (river)" and "Ganga (river)", especially since there is reference to "the Ganga" and "Ganga" as separate entities (a river and a deity, respectively).
Made changes, Ganges for the river and Ganga for the goddess. In the initial part, it is fairly clear that Vayu handed over the sparks to Agni due to the unbearable heat and Agni deposited them in the river. Anyways tweaked it to make it clearer
9. How can we state in wikivoice that Kartikeya is the son of Parvati and Shiva when a narrative names Agni and Svaha as his parents? The answer to this will also answer whether the Vana Parva narrative should be introduced with something like "An alternate account of Kartikeya's parentage is narrated in the Vana Parva: ..."
Added and modified
10. ...while none of them reciprocate his feelings... What feelings? Agni's feelings apparent for the wives should be explained.
Added
11. I've gone ahead and replaced instances of euphemisms surrounding sex, such as references to making love and sleeping with, per WP:EUPHEMISM. Let me know if you think that's alright, or if maybe euphemism is appropriate for recountings of these mythic narratives.
It is fine
12. He is considered as the younger brother of Ganesha, while some texts regard that he is the elder. I think these texts ought to be named—which say he's younger? Which say he's older?
I find that the older texts all mention him as younger. There is a premonition that he is elder in the northern part of India, but it does not seem to have credible literary backing. So modifying it as such with the names of the texts.
13. The verses describe a brightly-colored boy hurling weapons and other motifs that have been associated with Skanda. This is super interesting—the other motifs ought to be specified. Also, they should be explained. Like, why is a colorful weapon-hurling boy associated with Skanda? I've restructured the sentence to be arranged in a more comprehensible way, but please include the other motifs if possible: The verses evoke motifs associated with Skanda, including that of a brightly-colored boy hurling weapons.
added the motifs
14. In general, there seems to be an unpredictable inconsistency with the use of the names Kartikeya and Skanda in this article. Is there a reason for this? Would it be inappropriate to just pick one for general use (so, use "Skanda" if you're describing a text's contents that use that name, but in general use Kartikeya when referring in general to the figure—so for the sentence quoted in point 13 above, change "Skanda" to "Kartikeya"?
I have consistently used the word Kartikeya rather than other names to refer in general. Skanda is a name as mentioned in the literary texts and that is why it has been used here in the same context. Have changed the wording in the next sentence.
15. I notice you italicize Kumara in In these, the mythology is very different for Kumara, as Agni is described to be the Kumara whose mother is Ushas (goddess Dawn) and whose father is Purusha. Why is this?
removed the italics and rephrased it for better understanding
16. Chapter 7 of the Chandogya Upanishad (~800–600 BCE)... I like that you include the approximate era of the text here. Can you do this for all the texts named? It doesn't have to be paranthetical; it could be done like "The fifth-century CE Example text" or something prosaic like that.
I have added years wherein some sort of estimation is available. But for Vedas and some of the Puranas where the estimate is not available and is usually based on continuous revision, have not cited these.
That's all for now :) I have to say, I love the Vana Parva narrative a lot. Especially the six consecutive seductions and the development of semen into a six-headed boy among reeds. I'm so glad I get to review this! Zanahary (talk) 06:23, 3 June 2024 (UTC) @Zanahary, Thanks for the comments. Have addressed the comments for now. Have fairly expanded the article a bit as well to explain the life as well. Please do ping me in case of additional comments. Thanks!

Thanks so much! Your edits are excellent, and I really like the annotating-my-annotations format—let's continue it if you don't find it tedious. Feel free to reply with responses as simple as "Resolved". I'll continue with these notes:

Part-II

1. While he has 108 names according to existing Hindu literature, he is known by more given names. I'm afraid I don't understand this sentence. I would have rewritten it myself, but I can't find the source at all. Can you try clarifying its meaning? Is it that he has even more names beyond Hindu literature (so, including literature in other Indian languages?)
Rewrote the sentence. It means there are 108 names mentioned in lit. and there are other common names apart from that
2. I rewrote the second sentence of the first paragraph of the "Birth" subsection of the "Legends" section and combined the Clothey references, to avoid a mid-sentence cite anchor.
ok
The Shiva Purana birth narrative:
3. As Shiva was a yogi and was unlikely to bear children... Does being a yoga imply being unlikely to bear children? If so, I don't think you have to go into depth—you could just replace "and was unlikely" with "and thus unlikely".
done
4. As Shiva was a yogi and was unlikely to bear children, Tarakasura armed with his near immortality, expelled the Devas from Svarga. This is confusing in a way that's separate from point #3. This sentence suggests that Shiva's being unlikely to bear children is the reason for Tarakasura expelling the Devas from Svarga. That's confusing to me. Why did he expel them? I propose something like As Shiva was a yogi and thus unlikely to bear children, Tarakasura was armed with near-immortality. He took advantage of his power to expel the Devas from Svarga, seeking to... [something about his motive, if the source provides it].
done
5. This whole paragraph's narrative confuses me. Tarakasura expelled the Devas from Svarga. Then Shiva "hardly noticed Parvati". Then Indra tries to mess with Shiva—why? Is it because his granting of boons to Tarakasura is the reason for the expulsion of the Devas from Svarga?
Reworded it. Tarakasura can only be killed by son of Shiva and as he is engaged in meditation, he does not notice Parvati. Indra wants Shiva to sire an offspring, so that Tarak can be killed and Svarga can be reclaimed by him, so he tasks Kamadeva to awaken Shiva.
6. Make sure your spelling of Tarakasura is consistent—with the diacritics, or without.
—
done
7. a wish of able to be killed only by the son of Shiva I don't understand this phrase in the Kanda Puranam bit.
Rephrased. it is similar to Skanda Purana, wherein they can be killed only by Shiva's son.
8. Should "Devas" be lowercase? It's inconsistent. I notice one of the lowercase uses is hyperlinked to Hindu deities, while an uppercase is hyperlinked to Deva (Hinduism). Does this reflect different meanings across sources, or is it an error?
changed to be lower case everywhere. It conveys the same meaning.
9. I changed "cosmic world" in the "Early life" Legends subsection to "cosmos". Do you think that's correct? Or is "cosmic world" a term used in Hindu cosmology?
Should be fine.
10. When Shiva asks for an explanation... an explanation for Brahma's imprisonment?
reworded, meaning of the mantra
11. Sage Narada once visited Shiva at Kailasha and presented him with a Gnana palam (fruit of knowledge). Per WP:MOSFICTION, it should be stated which text this is from. By the way, this whole paragraph presents such an incredible narrative! And I love the way it's written.
mentioned
12. It is believed that Murugan did this out of a felt need to mature from boyhood. By whom, roughly, is it believed? Religious commentators? Priests (I don't know if that's a term ever used in regards to Hinduism)?
gave the author
13. The first two paragraphs of the "War with Asuras" subsection don't specify the textual sources of the narratives conveyed. Also, should "Asuras" be capitalized?
The story is from Kanda puranam. Should it be repeated again?
14. While Kartikeya had powers derived from Shiva, he was fierce but innocent and playful. Is "while" literal here, meaning it refers to the period of time for which Kartikeya had powers derived from Shiva? or is it like "though"?
in the second context, rephrased
15. Shiva later grants him with celestial weapons and the divine spear Vel, a embodiment of the power of Shakti (Parvati), Kartikeya was imparted with the knowledge of distinguishing between good and evil. This whole sentence could use a copyedit—"later" than what? How do the comma-separated phrases relate?
split, rephrased
16. Shiva grants him an army of 30,000 warriors to assist in the war against the asuras. This is the first we're hearing about such a war. It should be introduced.
not clear, Kartikeya was born to take on the three asuras brothers and that is the war.
17. These nine men were borne by nine Shaktis who appeared from Parvati's silambu (anklet). Wait, how? Earlier the article reads an embodiment of the power of Shakti (Parvati), which I interpreted to mean that Shakti is another name of Parvati, but from reading the hyperlinked Shakti, that doesn't seem right. If that is right, then it should be explained how nine Parvatis emerged from Parvati's own anklet.
Parvati is Shakti. She created nine lesser Shaktis (clones with lesser powers) from her anklet, who bore the nine commanders
18. He explains that Kartikeya believes that asuras and devas are all descendants of Shiva and that if asuras were to correct their ways, the fights can be avoided. He sends messengers to communicate as such and give a fair warning, which is ignored. Confusing; could be copyedited. I'm also wondering whether, and if so why, this narrative information is coming from Zvelebil rather than an Indian text. I mean: does this stuff come from an original text? Or did Zvelebil come up with, for instance, Kartikeya sending messengers?
The story comes from the Puranam. Removed the confusing bit and rephrased the entire para.
19. In the Kanda Puranam, Kartikeya moves on to kill the next brother Simhamukha before facing off with Surapadma in the final battle. Surapadman took a large form... Inconsistent tense
modified
20. When Kartikeya threw his vel, Surapadman escaped to the sea and took the form of a large mango tree spreading across the three worlds. Kartikeya used his vel to split the tree in half, with each half transforming into a peacock and a rooster respectively. After Surapadman is killed, he takes the peacock as his vahana and the rooster as his pennant. Not a note, just: this is so beautiful.

cool
21. Kartikeya and Ganesha are considered as two sons of Shiva and Parvati I might revise to something like Indian religious literary tradition generally describes Kartikeya and Ganesha as sons of Shiva and Parvati.
changed
22. In Tamil folklore, both Devasena and Valli were daughters of Vishnu in the previous birth and while Devasena was adopted as the daughter of Indra in her next birth through her penance, Valli was cursed to be born in earth, though both were destined to marry the son of Shiva. is confusing and should be split into two sentences. Does "previous birth" refer to a previous life, as in reincarnation?
addressed
23. whose name is mentioned as Murukaṉ mentioned where? The Tolkappiyam itself names Ceyon and Murukan as the same entity?
Yes. Ceyon represents Murugan, who is mentioned as Murukan meaning youth in Tamil
24. Per MOS:CENTURY, make sure the use of numerals or words for centuries is consistent in this article.
addressed
25. In refn 4: Not only are king of Chalukyas defined as "Velpularasar" in the Tamil lexicons copyedit (which I can't do myself since I don't know if it should be one king or many kings of Chalukyas)
rephrased

26. Standardize capitalization for vel/Vel.
addressed

That's it for tonight! Thanks again :) Zanahary (talk) 08:32, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Have addressed the same. Thanks! Magentic Manifestations (talk) 16:33, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

@Magentic Manifestations Points 16 and 22 are still not resolved for me; both ambiguities/unclarities still stand. The war with the asuras needs to be explained, and the "previous" language needs to be explicit about reincarnation/cycles. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 00:47, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

On point 22, If the expectation is to add the reincarnation concept, I have added it there to elaborate it. On the point 16, I guess you have made the changes.

@Magentic Manifestations I just explained that there is a war, but if you can add any context to explain its purpose, origin, etc. that would be great. You mentioned earlier on this review page that Kartikeya was born to fight the war—could you write about that in the explanation? ꧁Zanahary꧂ 03:35, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

@Zanahary Wouldn't that be a repeat of the circumstances of his birth? I have tried expanding it a bit to give some explanation. Let me know what your comments are. Magentic Manifestations (talk) 05:43, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Ah, now I understand! I'm going to make an edit and ping you in the summary. Let me know what you think of it. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 05:46, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

I think, it is fine. I have also expanded the family section a bit to name the relevant texts and the background as well. Thanks! Magentic Manifestations (talk) 06:05, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Thanks so much! Next I'll be looking at sources and checking claims. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 06:08, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Forgive my absence. I’ll get on this in the next few days. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 09:04, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

@Magentic Manifestations can you please mention something in the lead about the content in the Theology and historical development section? I think it's important information that there is evidence for his being syncretized from various traditions and adopted in the North from the Tamils. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 19:21, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Part-III

1. He is the philosopher and exponent of Shaiva Siddhanta theology. Kartikeya is? What does "the philosopher of..." mean? Can that be qualified (like "the central philosopher" , "the mythic philosopher" or something?)
expanded and modified a bit
2. In that role he was seen as a custodian who consistently defended the Tamils... Would it be okay to change "custodian" to "guardian"?
modified
3. I think either capitalizing or lowercasing "North" and "South" is acceptable, but make sure it's consistent across the article. Now I see both.
Have used lower case for cardinal directions but upper case while referring to the region say "South India". Should be okay? Yep!
4. The paragraph explaining Kavadi Aatam needs to introduce itself as an origin myth, and attribute it (to a work of literature, to a mythic tradition, etc.)
Can you please elaborate this a bit? It is introduced as a ritual practice which it is. Without describing the ritual itself, it does not make sense to go to the origin story. The origin or myth is explained in the later paragraph. Sure. It's just that the origin myth begins narrating without an introductory explanatory sentence for what's about to come. Something like "The practice's origins have been linked to a mythic anecdote about..."
added
5. on reasoning out is not clear in meaning.
Modified the sentence
6. They make pilgrimage with bare feet... going where?
Elaborated it
7. In Karnataka, the deity that is worshipped as Subrahmanya, where he is regarded as the lord of the serpents in Kukke Subramanya Temple and Ghati Subramanya. This needs a copyedit; I don't understand it.
Modified the sentence
8. The "Festivals" subsection is preceded by information about other festivals. Maybe combine them into that list? Keep the preceding mentions and add them to the list? I'm not sure how that should be best organized.
Have re-organized it. Combined the festivals into one single section.
꧁Zanahary꧂ 01:49, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

@Zanahary Comments in line. Thanks! Magentic Manifestations (talk) 03:31, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Sources

@User:Magentic Manifestations
Cite note 93 points to:

Chandran, Subramaniam (3 May 2016). "Devotion as Social Identity: The Story of the Tamil Deity". SSRN 2773448. Archived from the original on 18 October 2023. Retrieved 16 September 2023.

This is a preprint, which means it can't be cited unless the author is an expert. Is he an expert? Even if so, it's best to supplement with a better source.

The relevant section of the preprint seems to cite:

Ramalingam, Aranga. "Muruga Bakthi," Maha Kumbhabhishekam Malar, Sri Siva Subramaniya Swami Temple, Nadi, Fiji Islands, June 2006. 88-91.

Maybe you can take a look at that source and see if you can cite it instead? Or if you know any other sources that you can cite for the relevant article text.

If Chandran is indeed a subject-matter expert, and it's not possible to find any better sources, this citation can remain, per WP:SPS. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 06:20, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

@Zanahary Only the last part seems to be from the source cited and the cited source seems to be a print book. As I could not find the primary source, searched for similar sources. I have found another research source, which has been added to supplement the earlier citation. Magentic Manifestations (talk) 08:46, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

@Magentic Manifestations You use sfns or harvnbs to cite a "Vadivella Belle 2018", but there's no such source in the bibliography. Can you please resolve this? ꧁Zanahary꧂ 19:17, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

@Zanahary Resolved it. It was a miss, when I had removed multiple citations pointing to the same book in the article and replaced it with a sfn. Magentic Manifestations (talk) 06:00, 20 June 2024 (UTC)