Talk:Kastrati (tribe)

Edith Durham on the Kastrati

Here are some allegations found in Edith Durham's "High Albania" (1909).

Kastrati consists of one bariak of five hundred houses and, as do all tribes, has a definite tale of origin. It traces descent from the famous fighting stock, Drekalovich of Kuchi, which in turn derives from Berisha, by tradition one of the oldest of all Albanian tribes. [...] From Drekalovich, then, "a long while ago" came one Delti with his seven sons to the land of Kastrati. They fought the people they found there, said to be Serbs, beat them, took land and settled. And from Delti and his seven sons descend three hundred houses of Kastrati. The remaining two hundred are of mixed origin; some, doubtless with truth, are said to derive from the conquered Serbs. They are all now Catholic or Moslem, and Albanophone but Serb names, notably Popovich, show they have not always been so.

--Zoupan 15:11, 10 May 2013 (UTC) Blocked sock:Ajdebre.

Thanks. I think it should be possible to find more contemporary and scholarly sources which support this assertion. Otherwise I think it could only be mentioned as legend and attributed to her.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:43, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Antid that the assertion should be attributed and should also be mentioned that Durham was nothing more than a British traveller and anthropologist, as well as a champion of the Albanian cause, so her words should be touched with a 10 ft pole. Safetidhehyria (talk) 02:17, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

After some researching I think not. This Delti/Dedli story is recorded by many other authors:

• Carl Coleman Seltzer; Carleton Stevens Coon; Joseph Franklin Ewing (1950). The mountains of giants: a racial and cultural study of the north Albanian mountain Ghegs. The Museum. p. 45. Retrieved 14 May 2013. Three hundred out of 500 houses in Kastrati are said to be descended from a man called Delti...
• Karl Kaser (1995). Familie und Verwandtschaft auf dem Balkan: Analyse einer untergehenden Kultur. Böhlau Verlag Wien. p. 207. ISBN 978-3-205-98345-3. Retrieved 14 May 2013. Eine andere Version der Kastrati-Gründungslegende bezeichnet einen gewissen Detali (Delti, Dedli) Bratosi als ihren Gründungsvater.
• Fatos Baxhaku (1996). Die Stammesgesellschaften Nordalbaniens: Berichte und Forschungen österreichischer Konsuln und Gelehrter (1861-1917). Böhlau Verlag Wien. p. 16. ISBN 978-3-205-98470-2. Retrieved 14 May 2013.
• Giuseppe Valentini (1956). Il diritto delle comunità nella tradizione giuridica albanese; generalità. Vallecchi. p. 17, 282. Retrieved 14 May 2013. Così stando alla tradizione, la tribù di Hoti discenderebbe dallo stipite Lazer Keqi; quella di Gruda da Vuksan-Gjel-Gruda; quella di Kastrati, da un certo Dedli e così via».... la tradizione fa discendere Kastràti da un certo Dedli o Delti ...
• Wilhelm August Streitberg; Albert Thumb (1939). Indogermanisches Jahrbuch. Karl J. Trübner. p. 206. Retrieved 14 May 2013. Stammvater ist Ivan Dedli, der vor 13 Generationen aus Nrekali (Kuci)
• L'Ethnographie. L'Entretemps éditions. 1988. p. 52. Retrieved 14 May 2013. Les Kastrati se divisaient en trois branches anas : Pjetrat, Peloviq, Teloviq. La tribu Dedli réunissait cinq cents familles të ardhur auprès desquelles vivaient cent familles Jerani nip bije, liées par des liens de cousinage.
• Mihailo Petrović (1941). Đerdapski ribolovi u prošlosti i u sadašnjosti. Izd. Zadužbine Mikh. R. Radivojeviča. p. 70. Retrieved 14 May 2013. Њихов се предак, по предању Кастрата, звао Дедли.

--Antidiskriminator (talk) 06:57, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

That's fine although they all report tradition, as I don't see anybody having gone to written records. However please don't falsify sources. This quote used: Шлемена Хоти, Никај, Шкрели, Клементи, Кастрати и један дио племена Груда потјечу из краја, гдје се данас говори словјенски. Дурхам, слично као и Хан simply means "areas where today Slavic is being spoken", not "Slavic lands" like you had written, so I modified it. Be more careful next time. Safetidhehyria (talk) 12:43, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Yes I made a mistake. When I saw your modification I could not believe that I wrote it. I never attribute ethnicity to the territory. Even if sources contain terms like "Slavic land" or "Albanian land" I think it should not be added to the articles. Thanks for noticing my mistake.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 13:02, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

I just saw "don't falsify sources" part of your comment. There was no need for that.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 13:04, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

My apologies for that, didn't mean any offense. Safetidhehyria (talk) 13:26, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. I know you didn't mean any offense. I am rarely certain about things, but please be sure that I have never attributed ethnicity to certain territory and I will never do such thing in future. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 13:37, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

"Northern Albanians" or Northern Albanian tribe

The source used in this article present Kastrati as "Northern Albanian tribe". One user (ZjarriRrethues) change this into Northern Albanians (diff, diff. I believe it is wrong because the source clearly present them as one of the tribes of Northern Albania. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 17:11, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

"KASTRATI. Northern Albanian tribe and traditional tribal region." i.e stick to the sources.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 17:14, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Northern Albania is geographical designation. Do not wikilink it to the ethnicity.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:14, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Antid, wouldn't you think that if Elsie wanted to merely make a geographical designation and not a reference to the ethnicity, he would have used "Northern Albania tribe" and not "Northern Albanian tribe"? Are you sure to be better equipped in the English language than most of us here? Safetidhehyria (talk) 02:14, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Yes I think that Elsie clearly made a geographical designation. It is clear from the rest of the quote " Northern Albanian... traditional tribal region". A Northern Albanian traditional tribal region can only be geographical designation. Northern Albania is famous for being the last tribal region in the Europe. There are many tribes in Northern Albania. One of them is Kastrati. The ethnicity of members of the Northern Albanian tribes was/is not only Albanian.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 06:38, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

So according to you, if Northern Switzerland had a tribe, and Elsie wrote about it, he would have said Northern Swiss tribe or Northern Switzerland tribe and do you think there is a difference between the two? Safetidhehyria (talk) 11:59, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Elsie referred to Kastrati as Northern Albanian tribe and region. I explained why I believe that he used the term "Northern Albanian" as geographical designation which refers to Northern Albania, not to Northern Albanians. Like I explained in the above section, territory does not have ethnicity. I might be wrong but until you present convincing argument my position will remain like this.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 13:33, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

I can bring you other arguments:

• Historically in this encyclopedic of 1884 source the Kastrati have been considered Albanians. see this where it clearly said that Mustapha Asim Pasha invited the Albanian chiefs to a conference to discuss measure of public safety, but the message was answered with a refusal. The chiefs of the Shoshi, Shallas, Marturi, Nikai, Gashi, Kastrati and Hoti, all belonging to the Malisora group of tribes, communicated with the Mirdita, and the Luria, Matija, and Dibra-Posht tribes, with whome the "BESSA" oath had been taken.
• Durham says in page 22 The Kastrati were evidently a powerful tribe, for in 1403 we find Alexius Kastrati headman in a list of Albanian chiefs who are rewarded by the Venetians with gifts of cloth.
• The same Elsie (if you want a recent source) in his article on the Kanun of the mountains, which is in the Kanun article in wikipedia, although slightly different from the Kanun of Leke Dukagjini refers to all the tribes that adhere to the kanun of the mountains as "Albanians", you can see the Kastrati tribe as one of the 8 tribes that adopted that Kanun. Elsie says was adhered to by the Albanians of the mountains north of the area of the Kanun of Leke Dukagjini, primarily the tribes of Kastrati, Hoti, Gruda, Kelmendi,...., you may be sure how Elsie considers the Kastrati. He considers them Albanians.
• Gawrich considers them Albanians 22 Albanians signed the memorandum, including four each from the fises of Grude, Hoti, and Shkrel, five from Kastrati, three from the Klement and two from Shale.

Any other concern? Still think that the Kastrati are not Albanian? Safetidhehyria (talk) 13:58, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Straw man. I never said that Kastrati are not Albanians. All people who live in Albania are Albanians. But that was not the topic of this discussion. This discussion is about the interpretation of source written by Elsie and presenting Kastrati as "Northern Albanians" instead of 'Northern Albanian' tribe and region. I think I gave a fairly clear reason for my position and I don't really have much to add to that now. You are of course free to disagree. This issue does not deserve this amount of effort so this will be my last comment in this section about the tribe of "Northern Albanians" and territory which has the same ethnicity.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 14:39, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

All people who live in Albania are Albanians. We were talking ethnicity, not nationality. If you mean the former, please be careful from some of my Greek friends, who will disagree with you. Safetidhehyria (talk) 15:14, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

In general it is not easy to treat these articles as the sources are very limited. For instance we ought to find a source to link Lale Drekalov to this article. Safetidhehyria (talk) 15:38, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Serbian propaganda

I came here and while reading this extremely biased article, I thought, the king of serbian nationalism and vandalizing albanian articles, Zoupan himself is here. And seems like I was right. Shame how administrators support such stuff. Congratulations Zoupan, you deserve an award for managing to vandalize everything albanian. Good job to administrators (especially: Callanecc)for helping him. Vëllëzër shqiptarë, administratorët kanë bashkuar forcat me serbosllavët për të shkatërruar çdo gjë shqiptare. Theedardanian (talk) 19:46, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

Extremely biased article? Why is everything relating/connecting to Slavs/Serbs in Albania "nationalism and vandalism" according to you?--Zoupan 14:16, 19 August 2016 (UTC) Blocked sock:Ajdebre.

This article is full of serbian propaganda in it. Serbs stealing history is sadly nothing new i am afraid. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.236.83.133 (talk) 12:00, 26 October 2016 (UTC)

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Kamicë-Flakë

This village is not part of Kastrati. It was part of the administrative division of Kastrati in Ottoman times and under the bajrak of Kastrati, but it's not actually part of the Kastrati fis or region. The municipalities of Shkodër were formed on the basis of tribal regions. You will notice that Kamicë-Flakë is not part of Kastrat, but part of Qendër, Malësi e Madhe. Thus, when linguist Gjovalin Shkurtaj recorded all the brotherhoods of Kastrati for his book on the dialect of Kastrati (2013), there was no Petrovic family recorded. The people of Kamica-Flaka never saw themselves as part of Kastrati, have no relation to tribal organization and were under Kastrati just for administrative reasons. The way this is reflected in the article makes it look like there's somewhere a Petrovic Kastrati brotherhood.

Over the years, one of my main problems with wikipedia as a reader of topics that have to do with the Balkans is that even in very specific topics there's incosistency from article to article. For example, if the reader goes to Vraka, in its bibliography Steinke-Ylli's 21st century fieldwork, where Kamica is undestood as part of a "wider Vraka", explains that: Am östlichen Ufer des Shkodrasees gibt es heute auf dem Gebiet von Vraka vier Dörfer [..] Ferner zählen zu dieser Gruppe noch die Dörfer Shtoji i Ri und Shtoji i Vjetër in der Gemeinde Rrethinat und weiter nordwestlich von Koplik das Dorf Kamica (Kamenica), das zur Gemeinde Qendër. On this article, on the other hand Ottoman administrative units make it into the 21st century.

I started a geography to explain what is where. Edith Durham's recording about demographics can be included in the Vraka article. Some stuff in this article are duplicates, so another cleanup is required.

The relation of Kastrati with Kastrioti is irrelevant to this article. This relation was put forward by Frang Bardhi's biography of Gjergj Kastrioti, where he relates it to the toponym Kastrat in Has District. --Maleschreiber (talk) 13:24, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

Orphaned references in Kastrati (tribe)

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Kastrati (tribe)'s orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "Verli1":

• From Hoti (tribe): Verli, Marenglen (2014). "The role of Hoti in the uprising of the Great Highlands". Studime Historike (1–2): 54–55, 63–64, 71. Retrieved 5 February 2020.
• From Tuzi: Verli, Marenglen (2014). "The role of Hoti in the uprising of the Great Highlands". Studime Historike (1–2).

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 08:05, 19 September 2022 (UTC)