Talk:Katarina Bogdanović/GA1

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Reviewer: Mujinga (talk · contribs) 14:17, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

I'll take this on as part of the August 2023 GAN Backlog Drive and also Women in Green. Looking forward to reading this and working with you again SusunW. Just as a starting note, I'm prob going to be away most of next week (it's weather dependent so will be deciding on Sunday whether we go or not); I see you have some other GARs open and there's no rush on my end. Mujinga (talk) 14:17, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for picking her up Mujinga. Looking forward to working with you to improve it. I'm crazy busy right now with Indigenous women, so just ping me whenever you are ready. No worries about time constraints. SusunW (talk) 14:26, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Cool will do! I am enjoying reading about Bogdanović Mujinga (talk) 15:30, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

@SusunW thanks for the nomination I've left some comments below and put the article on hold. I won't be around much the next week and if you are also busy that's fine, when I have more time again I'll drop you a line. Good luck with the indigenous women, will be nice to read them when you are done! Mujinga (talk) 21:52, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the review Mujinga. I've tried to answer everything, but if I missed something or we need to discuss something further, just ping me. Truly appreciate your input on improving the article. SusunW (talk) 15:40, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

Great! I'll take a look in the next days, thanks for being flexible on timing Mujinga (talk) 09:29, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

@SusunW Great work at your usual high standard! My only quibble was taking "of Yugoslavia" off Peter II, feel free to change it back if you prefer, I just thought I'd do it myself as it was the only remaining query. Congrats on the GA, I see you have over 100 now which is quite the achievement :) Mujinga (talk) 10:37, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Good Article review progress box

Criteria: 1a. prose () 1b. MoS () 2a. ref layout () 2b. cites WP:RS () 2c. no WP:OR () 2d. no WP:CV () 3a. broadness () 3b. focus () 4. neutral () 5. stable () 6a. free or tagged images () 6b. pics relevant () Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the Good Article criteria. Criteria marked are unassessed

Copyvio check

• earwig not flagging up anything

Spotchecks and referencing

On this version

• 2&3 - She attended three years of primary schooling in her hometown and then went to Belgrade, where she finished her primary education and graduated from the Girls' High School. She then moved to Karlovac and completed four years of training at the normal school in 1904 - all good, additionally note 3 says she started teaching in Tuzla in 1904, and our text says "She taught primary school in Tuzla in 1905"

• Vujošević says 1905 to 1906, but you are correct that Zarić says 1904. Probably depends on if one is considering when a term ends or when it begins, but I added from 1904 to 1906 and both sources. SusunW (talk) 19:48, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

• 14 - She argued that schooling at that time taught students to be conformist and dependent, by rewarding their obedience, rather than preparing them for life and rewarding them for their creativity. She advocated for the abolition of grading systems and in favor of allowing students to participate in their own governance by creating self-governing student organizations that would teach them about the functions of the state and individuals in society.[14] - I was thinking about precisely this issue just the other day - " to participate in their own governance by creating" could become "to create" - info is backed fine, my gtranslate has "for the future functions in the state and society" so that's a bit close to "the functions of the state and individuals in society"

• Changed it to read the "responsibilities of the state and duties and rights of its citizens". Does that work? SusunW (talk) 19:48, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

sure! Mujinga (talk) 10:25, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

• 15 - When the National University, later the Kolarč National University, was founded in 1922, Bogdanović, along with Ksenija Atanasijević, Isidora Sekulić, and Zorka Vulović, became the first women to lecture there. They attracted wide attendance, often because it was so unusual for a woman to be engaged in academic and scientific work. Bogdanović's most productive writing period roughly corresponded with the interwar period. She began to publish book reviews and translations of writers from a variety of fields like Honoré de Balzac, Denis Diderot, Henry Ford, Blasco Ibanez, George Meredith, among others. In 1923, she and Paulina Lebl-Albala published the first high school textbook written by women in the country. Teorija književnosti (Literary Theory) was used in Serbian high schools for eighteen years (up to the start of World War II), and was updated in at least five editions.[15] - to be done Vujošević 2018 - for some reason at least on this browser I can't cut n paste the article into a translator without it going funny. I had to use my translator app on my telephone and the camera option, because, yes, some weird formatting of the text doesn't allow copy/paste. SusunW (talk) 19:48, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

• today I'm having more luck with the online version and this all verifies

• 21 - She encouraged her students to follow their consciences and be socially engaged. Along with the students at the Boys' High School, her pupils participated annually in May Day worker's actions. In 1937, the rally turned into an anti-fascist protest with a demonstration in front of the Officers' Club building. When Hitler's troops annexed Sudetenland, the Girls' High School organized a strike and students protested by taking their final examination in French rather than German.[21] - Vujošević 2018 - all good
• 22 - In 1945, she became the president of the Antifašistička fronta žena (AFŽ, Women's Antifascist Front of Yugoslavia). She remained active in the organization until 1953, when it was abolished. - on my machine translation it looks like she was president of the Kragujevac branch?

• Good catch, changed. SusunW (talk) 20:55, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

• 27 - Bogdanović's philosophy was informed by a wide variety of intellectuals from Pearl S. Buck to Isidora Sekulić and Alfred Adler to Vladislav Petković Dis. Analyzing Adler's concept of the creative self, Freud's theories on sexuality, and Carl Jung's ideas on personal freedom and interpersonal relationships, she concluded that people could only be free and autonomous if they were not restricted by traditions or obstacles in their environment - Vujošević 2018 again - all good
• 33 - That same year the Крагујевачки књижевни клуб (Kragujevac Literary Club) was renamed in her honor. Her legacy was forgotten, her grave overgrown with weeds, and the literary club was renamed in 2011 as the Udruženje pisaca Kragujevac (Kragujevac Writers' Association) because club members felt she had not left a large literary legacy - Vujošević 2018 - all good
• 31 - Tomić described Bogdanović as "one of the leading intellectuals of the time, appreciated for her sharp-minded, critical insights in book reviews, essays, and pedagogical debate". - quote is good

Images

• Pix are appropriately licensed and relevant to article. Great alt descriptions! Suggest "University of Belgrade in 1890" as caption

Article status

• Article is neutral, stable and focused. I have slight concerns on broadness because a lot is cited to Vujošević; I wouyld suggest checking enyclopedias such as the Српска породична енциклопедија [Serbian Family Encyclopedia] mentioned in further reading, if it's possible. References are well-laid out and from reliable sources.

• I actually tried to order these from the RX, but no one was able to find them, so I listed them in hopes that someone who might have access to them could add pertinent information. SusunW (talk) 20:56, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

cool thanks for the answer, good to know you tried! Mujinga (talk) 10:26, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Prose

• could mark article using Template:Use American English

• No clue if I did that right, but I tried. I am far less picky about the version of English than others, but far pickier about one sentence paragraphs and referencing.  ;) SusunW (talk) 19:30, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

looks good! Mujinga (talk) 10:28, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

• "Bogdanović graduated as the first woman to earn a degree in philosophy and Serbian literature at the University of Belgrade" - link Serbian literature? (and in lead)

• done. SusunW (talk) 19:30, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

• " Dalton Plan held in Bristol in 1922" could add England

• done. SusunW (talk) 19:30, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

• "Bogdanović, along with Ksenija Atanasijević, Isidora Sekulić, and Zorka Vulović, became the first women to lecture there. " - this reads a bit funny to me, you could go with "Bogdanović, along with Ksenija Atanasijević, Isidora Sekulić, and Zorka Vulović, became one of the first women to lecture there. "?

• Except that I am saying all four of them. Perhaps if I just omit along with and change became to were? SusunW (talk) 19:30, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

oh i see, all four at the same time? then i like your suggestion of "were" Mujinga (talk) 10:26, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

• "She analyzed numerous Russian works from Dostoevsky, Maxim Gorky, Ivan Turgenev, and Tolstoy and German philosophers such as Nietzsche and Arthur Schopenhauer." - i'd argue for "She analyzed numerous works from Russian writers Dostoevsky, Maxim Gorky, Ivan Turgenev, and Tolstoy and German philosophers such as Nietzsche and Arthur Schopenhauer."

• done SusunW (talk) 19:30, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

• "That year she was elected president of the Association of Secondary School Teachers.[19] She was named to the Order of St. Sava in the fifth degree for her cultural contributions to the city of Niš.[20] " - run these two sentences together

• done 19:30, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

• " the Minister of Education to forcibly retire her in 1940 because her leftist ideas and communist sympathies made her unfit to teach impressionable youth" - suggest " the Minister of Education to forcibly retire her in 1940 on the grounds that her leftist ideas and communist sympathies made her unfit to teach impressionable youth"

• done SusunW (talk) 19:30, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

• "In 1919, Bogdanović, Zorka Kasnar, " -why is this Zorka redlinked and not the other one, Zorka Vulović? Maybe they coudl be inter-language-linked to Serbian wikipedia, although i just check and of course it's in cyrillic script

• I add redlinks if I can confirm via a google search that there are sufficient sources to write an article. When I searched Зорка Каснар (Zorka Kasnar), there are articles and books. When I searched Зорка Вуловић (Zorka Vulović) the only link is to Vujosevic's article. Neither have an article on Serbian WP. SusunW (talk) 21:11, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

thanks again for putting in the work! Mujinga (talk) 10:27, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

• "That year, they also produced a collection of articles Pravo glasa za žene (Suffrage for Women)." - entitled?

• done SusunW (talk) 21:11, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

• "Bogdanović's contribution was the chapter Pravo glasa za žene činovnike ("Women Officials' Right to Vote")" - if there's apostrophes on the translation, maybe should also be on the Serbian version?

• Yes it should have quotation marks. Fixed. SusunW (talk) 21:11, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

• "and even offered classes" - also offered?

• done SusunW (talk) 21:11, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

• " summer school in Salzburg in 1921." - Salzburg, Austria?

• done SusunW (talk) 21:11, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

• "Bogdanović's philosophy was informed by a wide variety of intellectuals from Pearl S. Buck to Isidora Sekulić and Alfred Adler to Vladislav Petković Dis." suggest a list as in "Bogdanović's philosophy was informed by a wide variety of intellectuals including..."

• I've modified it, but I usually try to avoid lists of names to avoid MOS:SEAOFBLUE. 15:13, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

• " In 1939, Bogdanović went to America, " - " In 1939, Bogdanović went to the US "?

• done SusunW (talk) 15:13, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

• " but was arrested and imprisoned twice" - in which country? becauase she was just in US above

• added "remained in Yugoslavia". If that works then done. SusunW (talk) 15:13, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

that works but possibly because of my request I now see a few "Yugoslavia"s so suggest turning "Tito orchestrated the abdication of King Peter II of Yugoslavia" into "Tito orchestrated the abdication of King Peter II" unless you think the Yugoslavia there is needed Mujinga (talk) 10:30, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

• "Bogdanović never bowed to the pressure to join the Communist Party" - pressure from who?

• The communist government? Added context. SusunW (talk) 15:13, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

• "Literature and women's studies professor, Svetlana Tomić, confirmed" - confirmed when?

• added 2019 SusunW (talk) 15:13, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

• is there need for a selected works section?

• I didn't find a list or a bibliography that I could use to compile a section and Nikolić's biography/collected works is not apparently digitized. The only entry for her in Worldcat is the textbook. (Not unusual, in my experience for writers who did not write in English.) SusunW (talk) 15:13, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

true, I didn't find much either. thanks for the answer! Mujinga (talk) 10:31, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

• lead - " In 1923, she and Paulina Lebl-Albala published the first high school textbook, Teorija književnosti (Literary Theory), to be written by women in the country." - maybe " In 1923, she and Paulina Lebl-Albala published Teorija književnosti (Literary Theory), the first high school textbook to be written by women in the country."

• done (Note, did you know Lebl-Albala was WiR founder, Rosiestep's grandmother?) SusunW (talk) 15:13, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

wow i did not know that! Mujinga (talk) 10:31, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

• lead- "Posthumously, some of her writings were published by the writer Milan Nikolić." suggest "Posthumously, some of her writings were published by her biographer Milan Nikolić." - further, if he was her biographer, is it published in english?

• In one of the sources, I remember reading that the book is very difficult to find and as far as I can tell from searches, it never appeared in English and isn't digitized. No entry in Worldcat that I could find. SusunW (talk) 15:38, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

• lead - "is often referred to as the first woman philosopher of Serbia" - but in text you say she was the first female graduate in philosophy, which isn't necessarily the same thing

• My bad. Numerous web articles call her that. If you search 'Bogdanović, "prva žena filozof"' you will see, although I have only used Loš and Zarić. Added statement to legacy section. SusunW (talk) 15:38, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.