Talk:Kate's Cottage, Isle of Man

removed text

Internet article which first posting on article dates from 2013 plagiarised from Wikipedia article which dates from 2009. Editor not understand difference between articles between plagiarised and issues of plagiarism agljones(talk)20:48, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Extended content

I removed: The typical nineteenth century Isle of Man stone-walled cottage was occupied by the Mountain Shepherd Cecil Rhodes Tate and Gladys Tate and a BBC commentator mistakenly referred to "Tate's Cottage" as Kate's Cottage. The property was formerly owned by the Isle of Man Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry and was sold at public auction and is now in private ownership. In the recent building of a TT Marshals' shelter at Keppel Gate, the original stone gatepost from Keppel Gate was incorporated into its design. from the article. It appears to be adapted from https://daleymathison.wordpress.com/a-story-about-kates-cottage/ by a combination of too close paraphrasing, i.e. plagiarizing, and introduced errors/typos (perhaps to avoid detection by plagiarism-detection programs). The article has precious little about its title topic. The source should be used, but without plagiarizing, and with proper attribution. The source includes intro by Daley Mathison and also a full copy of a well-written 1982 newspaper article. --doncram 15:58, 29 March 2015 (UTC) If you look at the linked article there is a photograph of Michael Dunlop during the 2013 Supersport TT Race. This dates the article to 2013 or later. Do not be surprised if articles from Wikipedia are plagiarised and found in newspaper articles or in other internet articles. This section has been plagiarised from Wikipedia and I have not plagiarised or adapted the article. The sources that I can give are; Mountain Shepherd Ceil Rhodes Tate and Gladys Tate from page 7, Isle of Man Examiner dated 9th February 1951 for the death of their son Geoffery Rhodes Tate killed flying a Mk24 Supermarine Spitfire aged 25 no 208 squadron RAF killed Fayid, Canal Zone, Egypt. The section "pre-existing roads and bridle paths" a general article is adapted from page 5 of the Isle of Man Examiner dated 5th June 1970. The section "sheep-gates including the East Mountain Gate, the Beinn-y-Phott Gate at Brandywell and Keppel Gate" is adapted from page 5, the Isle of Man Examiner dated 5th June 1969. The property being sold is from another article in my private collection from the Isle of Man Examiner. The section about the photographs is from the Nick Harris book on page 22 and it is the same photograph in the internet article. Again do not be surprised if internet articles plagiarise Wikipedia articles. I have not adapted it from the internet article as the original Wikipedia article was created in 2009. I do not plagiarise articles and I do not use internet articles as they can disappear. If you check my Wikipedia editing history then you can see my research of Isle of Man TT articles has been extensive in the local newspaper archives. Perhaps you should restore the text with the above references agljones(talk)18:38, 29 March 2015 (UTC) The 2013 photo could have been added to the Wordpress article later. Just looking at the texts, it seemed more plausible to me that the linked article was written first, because it is smooth and clear and includes more specific information, while the Wikipedia text looks like it could be a somewhat garbled, extract version. I keyed on wikipedia version being jarring for me as i puzzled at what a "Mountain Shepherd" might be: Wikipedia version, "Mountain Shepherd Cecil Rhodes Tate" Linked article: "mountain shepherd Cecil Rhodes Tate" And depth of info provided also suggested linked article was source: Wikipedia version: "...and a BBC commentator mistakenly referred to "Tate's Cottage" as Kate's Cottage." Linked article: "...but after commentator Graham Walker (Murray Walker’s father) mistakenly referred to their home, Tate’s Cottage, as “Kate’s Cottage” the name stuck. Graham Walker competed in 24 TT events himself between 1920 and 1934 (and winning the lightweight (250cc) class in 1931) before retiring from racing and moving into commentating for the BBC on motorcycle racing events; Murray joined his father in that job in 1949." Maybe both versions are independent of each other, but used similar other sources. Anyhow, great that you put that much together, but the passage is still unsourced in the article. And it does seem relevant to name the BBC commentator and explain his having competed. I see you have now added references, but I tagged with "citation needed" some unsourced bits. I hope you can source the rest, and use more info from those sources, such as to name the commentator. Thanks! --doncram 23:55, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Notes

• The article fails to say up front what Kate's Cottage is. Instead of saying first where it is located, could it be defined, first? It looks like a very solid house, not what manner readers would think of as a "cottage".
• Is Kate's Cottage a named corner? It's certainly a landmark on the course, but the title doesn't sound like it is considered to be a corner. If it is to be considered a corner, could that be documented?
• The article is named "Kate's Cottage" but goes on about "Keppel Gate", as an area that includes it, and I'm afraid it being an area might be a construction in Wikipedia, not in sources, like Windy Corner seemed to have been. From what I've absorbed, I understand Kate's Cottage to be the house, and that there was a sheep gate across the track there (depicted in early photo), and that there was also another gate nearby named Keppel Gate. Why not go with that"? Or make a separate article about Keppel Gate, or move this one to Keppel Gate and reduce Kate's Cottage to being a section. The current article's presentation doesn't make sense to me.--doncram 23:55, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Kate's Cottage is a very small building. Photograph shows front of cottage and gable-end to road and makes it look larger. Photo not meeting Wikipedia standards of clarity and poor compositional elements with ambiguous design elements. Article not "constructed from sources" and listed in Isle of Man TT Guide 2006 page 57 as "Kate's Cottage". The cottage at "Kate's Cottage" like Brandywell has sheep folds and Shepherd Hut. There was a number of "Shepherds Huts" on the A18 Snaefell Mountain Road including Keppel Gate, Brandywell, Mountain Box, Black Hut, Bungalow Bridge and also the WINDY CORNER..... There is a pre-existing article about "Keppel Gate" and it is a matter of consistency and the articles fit together like a "jigsaw puzzle" as quoted by another editor. These articles are careful constructed to provided a standardised template which runs through all the articles and do not change without consensus. agljones(talk)21:09, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

notice about related discussion at Talk:Registered Buildings of the Isle of Man

I think every editor who has ever edited here on this page is aware of it already, but FYI there is a discussion ongoing at Talk:Registered Buildings of the Isle of Man#Request for comments on Kate's Cottage coverage, which relates to coverage about Kate's Cottage in that article and here. If a consensus is reached there establishing certain facts, those will naturally be applied in edits to this article, too. If you wanna object to emerging consensus there, speak there. --Doncram (talk) 21:22, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

age of cottage statement

I modified the lede to now state "It has been asserted in the Isle of Man's program of Registered Buildings that the cottage was built by 1869." with source. This is undisputably true. An editor has argued with no sources in edit summaries about the age of the cottage, which just doesn't help at all. State your business, provide sources here, if you wish to make any dispute. But it is a true fact that the government program's document states that the cottage was built by 1869, whether or not the cottage is that old. --Doncram (talk) 23:45, 4 April 2021 (UTC)